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Author Topic: 1 row in G, which keys?  (Read 6166 times)

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Winston Smith

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2018, 01:18:34 PM »

"(perhaps with a slight tang of steam locomotives, coal and hot oil)."

Have you been reading my mind, Mr Dumpleton?

I do love my 1 rows, but I'm not a lover of Oom-Pah basses, which I cannot get to grips with anyway! Normally I'm quite content to play melody only, like so many Irish players. But I also like "proper" bass lines or the odd bass note (or three) slipped in where appropriate.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but my inquisitiveness, and habit of looking for things I might possibly improve, forces me to look at some things in a different light. It's handy that I cannot afford decent instruments, or I'd be struggling to fill my time doing things which I really enjoy.
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baz parkes

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »

I'm all in favour of experimentation, improvements, trying out different tunings, keyboard layouts and such.
However, let's not forget that the basic 10-button one-row four-stop melodeon is an absolutely glorious instrument  (:). Whatever key it is pitched in, it can make a wonderful full and rich sound, reminiscent of fairgrounds, wurlitzer organs, etc., Just the ticket to get people's feet tapping and dancing.
Yes, it has its limitations inherent in its simplicity and economy of layout and tuning, but I believe that once we accept those limitations and learn to work with them rather than fighting them and wishing they weren't there, the humble one-row instrument truly comes to life. Just listen to all those Cajun and Quebecois musicians, and closer to home here, players such as John Kirkpatrick, Katie Howson, Jeannie Harris. Or recordings of Oscar Woods.Don't get me wrong; I love and play all those dreamy minor key tunes on my 2.5 row box, smooth cross-rowing stuff and all. But sometimes I just put it to one side, pick up my one-row four-stop and... it's a breath of fresh air (perhaps with a slight tang of steam locomotives, coal and hot oil).
 :|glug

All this and more...(apart from the fact I rarely play dreamy minor tunes and don't have a 2.5 row..). My Desert Island box would always be my 4 stop in C...and perhaps I might get my head around those Quebecoisand Cajun tunes... :|glug :|glug
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2018, 02:31:19 PM »

I'm all in favour of experimentation, improvements, trying out different tunings, keyboard layouts and such.
However, let's not forget that the basic 10-button one-row four-stop melodeon is an absolutely glorious instrument  (:). Whatever key it is pitched in, it can make a wonderful full and rich sound, reminiscent of fairgrounds, wurlitzer organs, etc., Just the ticket to get people's feet tapping and dancing.
Yes, it has its limitations inherent in its simplicity and economy of layout and tuning, but I believe that once we accept those limitations and learn to work with them rather than fighting them and wishing they weren't there, the humble one-row instrument truly comes to life. Just listen to all those Cajun and Quebecois musicians, and closer to home here, players such as John Kirkpatrick, Katie Howson, Jeannie Harris. Or recordings of Oscar Woods.Don't get me wrong; I love and play all those dreamy minor key tunes on my 2.5 row box, smooth cross-rowing stuff and all. But sometimes I just put it to one side, pick up my one-row four-stop and... it's a breath of fresh air (perhaps with a slight tang of steam locomotives, coal and hot oil).
 :|glug

All this and more...(apart from the fact I rarely play dreamy minor tunes and don't have a 2.5 row..). My Desert Island box would always be my 4 stop in C...and perhaps I might get my head around those Quebecoisand Cajun tunes... :|glug :|glug

I've always maintained that I've learned more about music from a Hohner Marine Band than any of the dozens of other instruments I've played. 

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2018, 06:30:42 PM »

If ever you feel you'll be limited by a single row - as others pointed out, it's sort of the point of such accordions, but you may want to have the feeling and sound of such boxes without having to fettle too much with the melodies - I may also add that Éric Martin, in Brittany, is making 10+3 buttons boxes. It facilitates the play in neighbouring keys (C, D, and relative modes). Don't know the waiting time, but his are sturdy, well-made, enjoyable boxes.

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2018, 10:10:19 AM »

All of the above. Greg's post on the 7 greek modes is the basis of all this. The notes your box has are

 G A B C D E F# …  G etc . But in play you don't have to start or end your tunes on G! Anything else is modal scale play. And most folk music is based on these modes.

Rare one's just to get out of the way … are
  phrygian minor (start B note … sounds Turkish, and is, note the flattened 2nd note)!
  lydian start on C - almost unknown in folk and a major anyway. Swedes and French auvergnats use it
  lochrian minor (F#) - 😎 I've heard it it Georgia, but mainly it is jazz, and one JKirkpatrick song

Useful ones, all playable on your kit but NB the push pull pattern will be different
  Ionian major (start G) many tunes
  mixolydian major  start D - loads of English. scots old French and US tunes. Most Rock'n'roll

Minors 😉
  aolian=relative start E - older simpler tunes, church songs
  dorian start on A - most common folk minor, both in UK and USA, lots of minor songs

Ofter forgotten : Pentatonic minors !
 A C D E G A
 E G A B D E   
 B D E F# A B     They let you into a lot of Blues stuff …

You also have an F# pentatonic, but its C note will sound "out" as it it a flattened 5th. That is cool, and works in blues scale, but a definite nono in folk tunes.

More on http://chrisryall.net/modes (done for D row, but has example to listen to)

« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 10:21:00 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2018, 10:19:00 AM »

Tip:

All the minor scales above have a different push pull arrangment. It is an excellent exercise to go up and down the useful ones (A and E : full scale or pentatonics) and B pentatonic until you can play them automatically.  more advanced is to play them in 3 note block (123,234, 345 etc and back down).

They aresomething that needs to be 'felt'

Also note that most 1row basses are set up for simple ionian or mixolydian. The minors are essentially right hand stuff.
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Winston Smith

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2018, 11:00:39 AM »

-Y-, thanks for the Eric Martin tip, I'm sure that one of those would be just lovely. The only fly in that ointment is that I don't have money to spend!

Chris, the info on your two posts is almost understandable to me, but I'm not sure that it will be much use to me personally. All I'm after doing is making an instrument which has the notes required to play (relatively easily) in more than the keys I currently have in the 1 row in G. I may be on a wild goose chase, who knows?

Whilst I understand that some tunes have notes which aren't available and therefore have to be faked in some way; if it's not too difficult to add those few notes, then why not do it. Martin and Sagne seem to have cottoned onto this and are producing 10+ boxes to satisfy their market, I'm just wanting to do it on the cheap, as usual!

I've been perfectly happy to "knock out" the tunes of hymns and folk songs for a while, but on the 114G I'm restricted to whatever keys it's playable in, and if folk want to sing along, perhaps it would be easier for them if I could change the key in which I'm playing the tune. Of course, I could just carry a range of differently tuned instruments around with me, but the one I prefer to play (at the moment!) is this 114G, so that's the one I'd like to fiddle around with.

(By the way, it was destined for the bin when I got it, so rather than it getting consumed in the flames of the incinerator, it's now enjoying a new kind of life! I often think of myself as a "Donkey Sanctuary" of the melodeon world.)
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2018, 11:29:09 AM »

-Y-, thanks for the Eric Martin tip, I'm sure that one of those would be just lovely. The only fly in that ointment is that I don't have money to spend!

Last time I checked the regular 1 row was around 2000€ (1800£ more or less), so I'd say the 10+3 is a bit more expensive, but not too much. That being said, you don't find 2000€ under your tea cosy. So definitely not cheap, although it'd be well spent.

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2018, 11:37:52 AM »

"although it'd be well spent."

If you'd care to come and explain that to my beloved? lol
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Anahata

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2018, 11:50:10 AM »

All I'm after doing is making an instrument which has the notes required to play (relatively easily) in more than the keys I currently have in the 1 row in G.

First, here's an approach to getting maximum value out of your unmodified single row box: any pentatonic tune (there are many: Auld Lang Syne, Amazing Grace and Spootiskerry are three well known examples) can be played in three different keys on one row. On a G box those keys would be C, G and D. There's a long list of pentatonic tunes here that you could learn to play. That would keep you well occupied for a while and eventually give you an impressive repertoire of tunes that you can play in 3 different keys on a single row melodeon.

If you really want full major scales in other keys by adding accidentals to your G box, here's a practical start:
Adding a C♯ will give you a scale in D, then adding G♯ to that will give you a scale in A
Adding an F♮  will give you a scale in C, then adding B♭ to that will give you a scale in F

For each of those additional notes, you might want to consider duplicating them in lower and higher octaves, and you can enjoy many hours making up you mind which notes to assign to which buttons (and in which direction...)

As usual with melodeons, whatever you add is a compromise and there will be something that you still can't do, of course.
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2018, 11:54:36 AM »

Come to think of it, pentatonic tunes would be another good theme of the month.
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2018, 11:58:35 AM »

All I'm after doing is making an instrument which has the notes required to play (relatively easily) in more than the keys I currently have in the 1 row in G.

If you really want full major scales in other keys by adding accidentals to your G box, here's a practical start:
Adding a C♯ will give you a scale in D, then adding G♯ to that will give you a scale in A
Adding an F♮  will give you a scale in C, then adding B♭ to that will give you a scale in F

For each of those additional notes, you might want to consider duplicating them in lower and higher octaves, and you can enjoy many hours making up you mind which notes to assign to which buttons (and in which direction...)

As usual with melodeons, whatever you add is a compromise and there will be something that you still can't do, of course.

If you follow the idea of a one row with accidentals to it's ultimate conclusion you might end up with a C#D or F#G, etc. (:) Of course, then you might want reversals.
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2018, 01:17:57 PM »

On a 10+3 accordion in G, I think I'd go for a C# and an F at two octaves + a reversal, so as to facilitate the neighbouring key. On a 10+5 like the Sagné, I don't know. Maybe keeping a reversal at the centre and extending it to a G# and a Bb as Anahata rightly pointed out.
Don't know for sure what the standard layout on Sagné boxes is anyway.

But I also concur with what has been said: the limitation is part of the box, and trying to compensate will ultimately end up in re-inventing the Irish system. But, having just some extra notes to play in C and D (and associated modes) rather than having to cart around 3 boxes can be appealing also, especially in the case where it's your "main" box. This applies mainly for Irish and Quebecois repertoire, I guess not so much for Cajun music where the limitations of the boxes are somewhat idiomatic to the way of playing.

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2018, 01:40:35 PM »

the hohner trichord is small and light and much easier to cart around than 3 boxes - it will also play in 12 keys although   it only has bass for CGDA and enough to get by for F and E.

It also comes in two or three voice versions the latter being the best


As to one row in G, I like mine just as it is   and it can manage the bluebell polka G and D parts   and playing the C part ( in G) in the higher octave sounds reasonable. 


also as it is a real grunter when using 4 voices  lI jenjoy using different combinations of voices rather than always using all 4.. Pity there is no way of switching voices on the hoof   with accordion type couplers.  Has anybody come up with a way of changing voices mid tune


george
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 01:43:32 PM by george garside »
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2018, 01:53:22 PM »

And I thought we were slowly slipping off-topic with 1,5 rows...  ;D

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2018, 01:54:11 PM »

"Has anybody come up with a way of changing voices mid tune"

If you happen to have a chin as pointy as Dear Old Brucie, then you cold start off with all the stops up and just chin them down as need be. Voila!
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2018, 01:58:49 PM »

Imagine, a 10 buttons box with... 10 couplers on the grid... A mighty sight indeed.

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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2018, 02:00:16 PM »

-Y-, I think we're still more or less on-topic. Anyway, it's all "grist to the mill", as they say. Most of the info and/or opinion proffered is useful to a dope like me. Thanks everyone.
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2018, 05:00:10 PM »

"Has anybody come up with a way of changing voices mid tune"

If you happen to have a chin as pointy as Dear Old Brucie, then you cold start off with all the stops up and just chin them down as need be. Voila!

I have thought about putting piano wire extensions on  a couple of  the stops so they could be pulled or pushed with tooth power!

george
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Re: 1 row in G, which keys?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2018, 05:02:17 PM »

Imagine, a 10 buttons box with... 10 couplers on the grid... A mighty sight indeed.

only 4 couplers would be needed  to do the same as the stops bu reachable when  in mid tune

george
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