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Author Topic: Minor Young Collins  (Read 2852 times)

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Robin Tims

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Minor Young Collins
« on: November 05, 2018, 04:27:39 PM »

Young Collins is of course a very well known Morris tune but I am intrigued about mentions of the 'minor' version.

Before I reach for the dot-writing software does anyone have any pointers about key sigs and dots please ? My 'boxes' are D/G but I can also use C/G Anglo or English Concertinas.

Thanks and Regards

Rob
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JD

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 05:21:39 PM »

There is a version of Young Collins works in B minor (I think) on the G row of a D/G melodeon. It's the version that Roger Watson played on the LP "English Melodeon Players". Southdown Morris danced to it.
But, a quick look through Handbook of Morris Dancing hasn't found the music. It isn't the Bledington, Longborough or Oddington versions.

Maybe that will jog somebody's memory or I can try to transcribe if it doesn't turn up.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2018, 05:40:30 PM »

There is a version of Young Collins works in B minor (I think) on the G row of a D/G melodeon. It's the version that Roger Watson played on the LP "English Melodeon Players". Southdown Morris danced to it.
But, a quick look through Handbook of Morris Dancing hasn't found the music. It isn't the Bledington, Longborough or Oddington versions.

Maybe that will jog somebody's memory or I can try to transcribe if it doesn't turn up.

Is this the one you have in mind?

X: 1
T:Young Collins, Bledington 2
Q:120
M:2/2
L:1/8
A:Bledington
P:A(AB)4
K:BPhr
P:A
|:BBde g2e2|f2a2 d3f|g2g2 a2gf|e2d2 B4:|
P:B
|:A2G2 ABc2|d2d2 B3d|e2d2 efg2|a2a2 g4 |
  BBde g2e2|f2a2 d3f|g2g2 a2gf|e2d2 B4:|

It's in the the Phrygian mode of B (ie 1#).
From the Morris Ring collection.
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Greg Smith
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 08:28:18 PM »

Thank you both for responding so quickly.

A quick play through (on our piano !!) seems very promising but I would like to to compare with the only three audio recordings I can find so far. Brian Peters 'sample' from Anglophilia, Clive Williams on YouTube, and another on here whose name escapes me for the moment but played very sensitively)

The chording is a bit beyond me at the moment but it is at least do-able on a D/G which must be a clue.

Cheers,

Rob
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 08:45:33 PM »

Yes, that is indeed the one, brilliant, thank you again.

 ....and the player whose name I could not recall just now was 'Eshed' with a link in 'Visiting the Uk' under General Discussion, really nice version too.

Cheers again.

Rob
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Eshed

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 10:14:44 PM »

Thank you both for responding so quickly.

A quick play through (on our piano !!) seems very promising but I would like to to compare with the only three audio recordings I can find so far. Brian Peters 'sample' from Anglophilia, Clive Williams on YouTube, and another on here whose name escapes me for the moment but played very sensitively)

The chording is a bit beyond me at the moment but it is at least do-able on a D/G which must be a clue.
On a D/G you don't have a pull D so you have to switch the bass note (same as Roger Watson does) from E to B on the D in the first bar. In my video I'm playing a club which is how I can sustain the E (actually C in my case, as I play a Bb/Eb) bass.
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 10:22:41 PM »

Ah, good point Eshed, thanks.

Rob
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JD

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 11:03:47 PM »

If I had not been in such a hurry (I should have been doing something else) I might have remembered this was the Bledington tune collected by the Travelling Morris. I do remember seeing Southdown Morris dance to this at Towersey maybe 25 years ago (maybe more). It was played by a teenage member of the side who played it exactly as Roger Watson played it on the record. I wonder what happened to him?
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 11:44:45 PM »

Thank you both for responding so quickly.

A quick play through (on our piano !!) seems very promising but I would like to to compare with the only three audio recordings I can find so far. Brian Peters 'sample' from Anglophilia, Clive Williams on YouTube, and another on here whose name escapes me for the moment but played very sensitively)

The chording is a bit beyond me at the moment but it is at least do-able on a D/G which must be a clue.
On a D/G you don't have a pull D so you have to switch the bass note (same as Roger Watson does) from E to B on the D in the first bar. In my video I'm playing a club which is how I can sustain the E (actually C in my case, as I play a Bb/Eb) bass.

Do you have a link to your recording, Eshed?
I find this tune fascinating, but confusing.
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Dick Rees

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 12:50:53 AM »

Thank you both for responding so quickly.

A quick play through (on our piano !!) seems very promising but I would like to to compare with the only three audio recordings I can find so far. Brian Peters 'sample' from Anglophilia, Clive Williams on YouTube, and another on here whose name escapes me for the moment but played very sensitively)

The chording is a bit beyond me at the moment but it is at least do-able on a D/G which must be a clue.
On a D/G you don't have a pull D so you have to switch the bass note (same as Roger Watson does) from E to B on the D in the first bar. In my video I'm playing a club which is how I can sustain the E (actually C in my case, as I play a Bb/Eb) bass.

Do you have a link to your recording, Eshed?
I find this tune fascinating, but confusing.

Here you go:  https://youtu.be/QZLYMzRRhyA
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 08:28:27 AM »

Thank you for the link. Love this tune. But it still confuses me.
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 03:27:23 PM »

If I had not been in such a hurry (I should have been doing something else) I might have remembered this was the Bledington tune collected by the Travelling Morris. I do remember seeing Southdown Morris dance to this at Towersey maybe 25 years ago (maybe more). It was played by a teenage member of the side who played it exactly as Roger Watson played it on the record. I wonder what happened to him?

Would that be the same Roger Watson that wrote 'Handbook for English Concertina' I wonder ? I would love to hear that Melodeon LP.

Still looking at the tune. Wife not impressed by the vid clips, why spoil the good original Morris major one she says. I got hooked on this one slightly because we have recently been doing both Winster Gallop and The Fairy Dance in major and minor keys as add-ons for a Playford 'Ceilidh'.

Rob
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Dick Rees

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 03:57:35 PM »

Thank you for the link. Love this tune. But it still confuses me.

What's confusing for you?  Not being familiar with the major version or the dance, I hear it "as is" and apart from resolving on the 5th it seems pretty straightforward.  Interesting tune and I suspect an equally interesting story/background to go with it.  Any such info available?
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JD

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2018, 05:19:15 PM »

Robin - The very same Roger Watson who wrote handbooks for English Concertina, Anglo Concertina and Melodeon.
This version of Young Collins was collected about 1890 from Charlie Benfield the fiddle player for Bledington at the time.
As far as I am aware English Melodeon Players was never released on CD. My vinyl copy is NOT for sale! However there is a recording of this tune on Danse Macabre by Florida featuring one GM Atkin on Guitar (Tim Bull on melodeon). That was released on CD. Maybe Gavin has a copy or two in the attic.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2018, 06:07:38 PM »

Thank you for the link. Love this tune. But it still confuses me.

What's confusing for you?  Not being familiar with the major version or the dance, I hear it "as is" and apart from resolving on the 5th it seems pretty straightforward.  Interesting tune and I suspect an equally interesting story/background to go with it.  Any such info available?

The harmony is unexpected.
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Dick Rees

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2018, 06:36:09 PM »

Thank you for the link. Love this tune. But it still confuses me.

What's confusing for you?  Not being familiar with the major version or the dance, I hear it "as is" and apart from resolving on the 5th it seems pretty straightforward.  Interesting tune and I suspect an equally interesting story/background to go with it.  Any such info available?

The harmony is unexpected.

That can happen!  And should it occur, I have to do some extra listening over a longer time until it clicks.  Unexpected harmonic structure is often what makes me interested, I guess.  In this case I am totally unencumbered by knowledge of any other versions and...ignorance is bliss, as the saying went.
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Dick Rees

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2018, 07:26:27 PM »

Get it while it's hot:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Edward-II-And-The-Red-Hot-Polkas-English-Melodeon-Players-Vinyl-LP/312236016019?hash=item48b2b78193:g:DdcAAOSwZB1blSRu

All I ask is a pirate copy...

Edit:

Tracks from the album are available through Amazon music.  Unfortunately for me, the Amazon music app requires iOs 10 minimum and my old iPad won't update past 9.1.  Saved a few bob there, I guess.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 08:00:18 PM by Dick Rees »
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GPS

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2018, 07:46:02 PM »


Still looking at the tune. Wife not impressed by the vid clips, why spoil the good original Morris major one she says. .

Not wishing to be controversial, but a tune collected in the late 19th century from Charles Benfield seems pretty "original" to me. Personally I've always preferred the minor version (OK, I've got a bit of a thing for minor mode morris tunes), and I find the "usual" major version a bit tedious, to be honest; the Oddington tune is a great deal more appealing. And, although audiences seem to like it, there are MUCH better Bledington dances, IMHO. Just my opinion, FWIW.

(Retreats for cover and awaits flying brickbats!)

Graham
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2018, 08:00:49 PM »


Still looking at the tune. Wife not impressed by the vid clips, why spoil the good original Morris major one she says. .

Not wishing to be controversial, but a tune collected in the late 19th century from Charles Benfield seems pretty "original" to me. Personally I've always preferred the minor version (OK, I've got a bit of a thing for minor mode morris tunes), and I find the "usual" major version a bit tedious, to be honest; the Oddington tune is a great deal more appealing.

(Retreats for cover and awaits flying brickbats!)

Graham

Fair point GPS. Do we know how old the 'major' Bledington version is then ? (and personally I agree it can be a bit tedious)

As to the eBay record well spotted Dick Rees. That pic of the LP cover kick-started my memory of a cassette of the same which I actually had long ago and which eventually got mangled by the in-car player (as they sometimes did).

Do we know what key that Minor Young Collins was played in, the Bm or the Em ?

Rob

 
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2018, 08:30:51 PM »

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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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