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Author Topic: Minor Young Collins  (Read 974 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2018, 08:37:25 PM »


 Do we know how old the 'major' Bledington version is then ? (and personally I agree it can be a bit tedious)

Rob

According to this, collected in 1934 from Charles Benfield (I think), but the collection date is not the age.

https://themorrisring.org/taxonomy/tradition/bledington
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 08:41:15 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2018, 08:44:14 PM »


 Do we know how old the 'major' Bledington version is then ? (and personally I agree it can be a bit tedious)

Rob

According to this, collected in 1934 from Charles Benfield (I think), but the collection date is not the age.

https://themorrisring.org/taxonomy/tradition/bledington


there is vaguely related tune in Joshua Jackson's 1798  manuscript
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Greg Smith
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2018, 04:58:20 PM »

Discovered yesterday that friends of ours had 'Melodeon Players of England' in their collection so have just been listening to Roger Watson playing Minor Young Collins just as the dots earlier posted by Tone Dumb Greg, and suitable for a D/G box. I'm still a bit puzzled by the chording so needs some work.

Thanks all.

Rob
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2018, 06:13:25 PM »

The availability of this was discussed on this thread a few years ago. I wonder if Guy ever got a copy. Martin has one.

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,1162.20.html
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Greg Smith
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Andy Next Tune

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2018, 06:33:31 PM »

Here's the ABC for Young Collins Minor, as played by Mersey Morris. We adopted it after hearing and watching Leeds Morris dancing to it a few years ago.

X:100
T: Young Collins Minor
T: Alternative tune for Young Collins Bledington
P:A(AB)4
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:Em
Q: 145
P:A
"Em"B2ef g2 e2|"D"f2 a2 d2 ef|"Em"g2 g2"D" a2 gf|"Em"e2 "D"d2 "Bm"B4|
"Em"B2ef g2 e2|"D"f2 a2 d2 ef|"C"g2 g2"D" a2 gf|"Em"e2 "D"d2 "Em"e4|
P:B
"Am"A2 G2 AB c2|"D"d2 d2"Em" B3 d|"Em"e2 d2 ef g2|"D"a2 a2 "G"g4|
"Em"B2ef g2 e2|"D"f2 a2 d2 ef|"Em"g2 g2"D" a2 gf|"Em"e2 "D"d2 "Bm"B4|
"Am"A2 G2 AB c2|"D"d2 d2"Em" B3 d|"Em"e2 d2 ef g2|"D"a2 a2 "G"g4|
"Em"B2ef g2 e2|"D"f2 a2 d2 ef|"C"g2 g2"D" a2 gf|"Em"e2 "D"d2 "Em"e4||
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2018, 02:22:10 PM »

Here's the ABC for Young Collins Minor, as played by Mersey Morris. We adopted it after hearing and watching Leeds Morris dancing to it a few years ago.

X:100
T: Young Collins Minor
T: Alternative tune for Young Collins Bledington
P:A(AB)4
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:Em

Interesting one Andy, thanks. To me it seems to lack some of the atmosphere of the other ones mentioned (perhaps because it ended up - horribly - on MuseScore being played on midi piano) but looks a good deal more manageable on box and I was please to see the chording added. Will give it a go on box later.

Rob
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2018, 11:45:29 PM »

Here's the ABC for Young Collins Minor, as played by Mersey Morris. We adopted it after hearing and watching Leeds Morris dancing to it a few years ago...


Interesting one Andy, thanks. To me it seems to lack some of the atmosphere of the other ones mentioned (perhaps because it ended up - horribly - on MuseScore being played on midi piano) but looks a good deal more manageable on box and I was please to see the chording added. Will give it a go on box later.

Rob
From looking at it (I haven't had a chance to play it yet), that seems very like the setting Clive was playing, at least so far as the harmony goes. (he might not agree). It explains a lot of what I didn't understand about the harmony. For me, it seems like it's in E Aeolian (i.e., bog standard E minor) rather than B Phrygian, even though it starts and finishes on B, the 5th note of that key...

Clive's playing sounds pretty atmospheric to me.I don't think there's a lot to be gained by listening to a tune from a midi automatically generated from abc. At least, it's never worked for me. I have to listen to real people playing something in a way I like.
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Greg Smith
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2018, 08:45:34 AM »

Greg I think it actually finishes on an E, both the A and the B parts (with a matching Em chord too) so to me it doesn't sound like Clive's version (I must have another look/listen to that).

.....and yes, despite our best efforts we only rarely get a midi version of anything to sound half acceptable. Useful for helping to stop me initially coming up with my own undisciplined, imagined, and 'remembered' versions of tunes though (I'm told).

Rob
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2018, 08:56:59 AM »

You're right. I hadn't spotted the difference between first and second run throughs of the phrases in the A part. And I still can't make it sound right. I'll have to keep scratching my head. I do find this tune confusing.
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Greg Smith
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Winston Smith

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2018, 09:57:51 AM »

"my own undisciplined, imagined, and 'remembered' versions of tunes"

That's one of my biggest problems, as a "by ear" player. I've no idea as to how to get around it.
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Lester

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2018, 10:15:31 AM »

"my own undisciplined, imagined, and 'remembered' versions of tunes"

That's one of my biggest problems, as a "by ear" player. I've no idea as to how to get around it.


Her's some ideas
Use ABC which will play midi versions to point you in the correct direction.
Play directly from ABC
Learn to read music

Steve_freereeder

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2018, 10:32:47 AM »

Greg I think it actually finishes on an E, both the A and the B parts (with a matching Em chord too) so to me it doesn't sound like Clive's version (I must have another look/listen to that).

.....and yes, despite our best efforts we only rarely get a midi version of anything to sound half acceptable. Useful for helping to stop me initially coming up with my own undisciplined, imagined, and 'remembered' versions of tunes though (I'm told).

Here's the link to Clive's very beautiful recording.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1yDXX1hLaE

It's pretty much identical to the Morris 'Black Book' Bledington 2 version which Greg posted earlier in this thread, except that Clive plays a minim F# rather than a G at the end of the 4th bar of the B-music.

The tonality of the music is definitely tricksy. The notes as written are the same in either Em (Aeolian) as in Andy's Mersey Morris version or the Black Book Bledington 2 Bm (Phrygian) - the same notes occur in both modes.

When it comes to choosing chords on a melodeon, you can base your playing either around Bm or Em. To hear something of the difference, try ending both parts of the tune, e.g. (i) with a Bm(7) chord or (ii) with an Em chord. Both work very well, but the effect, the 'feel', of the tune is different.  Nice! I like tricksy tunes.  (:)
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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2018, 10:46:53 AM »

Being rather lazy, I'm not that bothered as to go to those lengths, Lester. But thanks for the suggestions. Mind you, as most of what I do play is on the spur of the moment, they wouldn't be much use anyway.
I'll probably just carry on moaning, and when I can't remember what I want to play, I'll just play something else which my fingers can fly to!
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Robin Tims

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2018, 10:48:58 AM »

"my own undisciplined, imagined, and 'remembered' versions of tunes"

That's one of my biggest problems, as a "by ear" player. I've no idea as to how to get around it.


Her's some ideas
Use ABC which will play midi versions to point you in the correct direction.
Play directly from ABC
Learn to read music

I have read the dots for many years Lester but don't always play or correctly interpret what is written, to the disgust sometimes, of 'her who must be obeyed' who came into Folk from classical beginnings and is not always keen on Folky variations.

Thanks for the excellent ''heads up' Steve, ultra helpful.

Rob
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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2018, 02:46:10 PM »


I have read the dots for many years Lester but don't always play or correctly interpret what is written

Me too, and that is why being able to read the dots is a help - I often learn a tune from the dots, then it gets "folk processed" in my head and I no longer play it that way, but at least I can go back to the printed music to get a measure of how far I have strayed. I may or may not correct myself back to the printed version, but at least it's an informed decision...
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Dick Rees

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2018, 07:32:59 PM »

Notation is an art just like playing.  The trick is to strike a balance between nuance and readability.

I like "the dots" because it's easier to show rhythmic subtleties, articulations (I hate the term "ornamentation"), phrasing, variations and harmonies.  A good transcription can pretty much convey HOW the tune was played rather than simply putting the "right notes in the right order".
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 10:16:00 PM by Dick Rees »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2018, 09:18:11 PM »

...I have read the dots for many years Lester but don't always play or correctly interpret what is written, to the disgust sometimes, of 'her who must be obeyed' who came into Folk from classical beginnings and is not always keen on Folky variations...

Rob

But "folky variations" are the point where playing a sequence of notes ends and musicianship starts. I hear that over and over again on this site.
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Greg Smith
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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2018, 01:17:41 AM »

Notation is an art just like playing.  The trick is to strike a balance between nuance and readability.

I like "the dots" because it's easier to show rhythmic subtleties, articulations (I hate the term "ornamentation"), phrasing, variations and harmonies.  A good transcription can pretty much convey HOW the tune was played rather than simply putting the "right notes in the right order".

Articulation and ornamentation are two different things.

Articulation is all about how any particular note is joined to its neighbours. For example, a note can be played short (staccato, detached) with a gap of silence before the next note is played, or it can be played smoothly (legato, slurred) joining into the next note with no silence between the two. Groups of notes can have mixed articulation, so (say) a group of four quavers or four semiquavers could be played 'slur two, detach two' which would sound like 'tah-yah tat tat'. If you are a wind or brass player that would equate to 'slur two, tongue two': very Mozart-like. It sort of equates to what you list as 'phrasing' but that's not the whole story: there can be more than one set of articulations within a single phrase.

Ornamentation is what you do to a single note to make it 'more interesting' than just the plain note on its own. This includes trills, cuts, rolls, turns, grace notes of various sorts and lengths, etc.

In both traditional and classical (in the broad sense) music, there are well-established symbols and methods for notating both articulation and ornamentation, which goes a long way towards producing "a good transcription [which] can pretty much convey HOW the tune was played".
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Dick Rees

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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2018, 01:45:24 AM »

Steve...

What I referred to was the all too common mistake made in classifying articulations as ornaments.  You are correct in stating they are two different things.  My point was meant to be that they are indeed not the same.
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Re: Minor Young Collins
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2018, 08:49:41 AM »

..............and very many thanks everyone for your interest and help with Minor Young Collins, greatly appreciated.

Rob
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