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Author Topic: Dry and wet tuning  (Read 36703 times)

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JoeR

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Dry and wet tuning
« on: September 01, 2009, 02:37:06 PM »

I'm sorry if this has been asked before but im new to this forum,

what exactly is dry and wet tuning?
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melodeon

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2009, 02:47:00 PM »

This refers to the difference between one set of reeds and another

Presuming first that you must have two reeds per button..
Assuming they are both th same style/type/octave reed such as two middle also known as clarinet reeds
An example of this would be a Hohner Erica or Pokerwork

One reed would be tuned to pitch, whatever the pitch so as an example A 440
the other reed would be pitched slightly higher.. this gives a tremolo or warble effect so common to accordion

The greater the difference in the two reeds the greater the tremolo or warble and called WET tuning

Dry tuning would be two reeds tuned the same.. so as an example two A reeds at 440

There are degrees of dry or wet such as

Dry
Swing
Tremolo Americano
Musette
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:17:48 PM by melodeon »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2009, 03:19:09 PM »

Nice summary. The latins also do a 'demi-sec', in theory half way between dry and swing.

Interpretations vary - see the recent Gaillard thread here, with USA people finding his tuning too dry.  At the other end my own experience of 'Calabrian' coming from the Castagnari stable was that is was even wetter than musette! It sounded almost detuned to my poor ear.

We've been warned off more 'maths' earlier today, but in the standard sine X + sine Y formula the tremelo is felt at X-Y and the pitch heard by the ear at the average of X and Y where X,Y are frequencies. I've occasionally wondered why accordion tuners can get away with making one dead on tone - but seems they do   D3R
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Stiamh

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2009, 03:38:25 PM »

Re. the recent Gaillard thread, but on-topic here, I think:

I had my new Gaillard box checked by a tuner who uses Dirk's accordion tuner software and it was very consistently one reed at A=440Hz and the other at +4 cents throughout the range.

This reminded me of something I read by the late Rich Morse to the effect that, even when he was asked to tune an accordion dry, he found that a gap of 4 cents was the minimum practicable, because when the reeds were closer than that, undesirable interferences resulted. Let's see if I can find the passage, ah here it is:

http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 03:41:32 PM by Steve Jones »
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rees

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 04:26:42 PM »

Ah, but what about the sound, do you like that, I ask. Yes, but Daddy, she says, it sounds like there's another accordion playing next to it...



A very astute daughter, methinks.
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Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
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Lars

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 04:34:21 PM »

Well, it all depends on the accordion/melodeon!

Not all boxes will sound good dry, and some will sound horrible tuned wet. I ALWAYS do some experimenting with the tuning before settling on how I want a box to be tuned.

Personally, I don't think -18, 0, +18 is much - I heard Charlie Harris play for set dancing this summer on a Paolo Soprani tuned to -25, 0, +25 cents, and it sounded lovely and sweet. On the other hand, I think 18 is plenty for my own box, it brings out the cripsness without screaming, though most musicians around here thinks it's terribly out of tune (it's fresh tuned and perfect in pitch!)
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JoeR

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2009, 04:40:40 PM »

thanks for the info guys, that helps a lot

i actually understand it now  (:)
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 08:37:47 PM »

BTW Chris, demi-swing is frequently used to mean halfway between musette and swing rather than halfway between dry and swing. Best avoided I think, in fact I think all these terms are best avoided. From now on, when talking to makers or tuners, I'm going to talk strictly beats per second or cents.

Hmmm - was in my head as demi-sec - too much Champagne of late, perhaps?

My old Mori (now with Julian Sutton for some 10 years) was demi swing BMM. I have to say that I rarely used that voicing. Generally drove it in in Bandoneon B+M mode. This is also what I ordered from Gaillard - so no over-dryness moans from me 8)

Thanks for putting me right
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ganderbox

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2009, 09:27:50 PM »

 On his website, Bernard Loffet describes his various tunings in terms of beats per second.

http://diato.org/accord.htm

Could anybody explain how this translates to cents?
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Pauline from Cornwall

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2009, 07:03:54 AM »

I think it translates more or less in the same way a Gallic shrug translates into English. My understanding of the 'cent' is that it is 1/00th of an 'equal temperament' semitone.  

If your A note is at 400 440 Hz then the next note up (Bb) is at about 464Hz. This makes one 'cent' as 0.24Hz. In terms of the beats - 4 cents should be one beat per second (pretty dry)!

But a melodeon isn't just one note. An octave higher we have another A at 800Hz. Doing the same sum the 'cent' there is .475Hz. At this level 4 cents is approx two beats per second.

So Lofflet's explanation only makes sense to me with respect to one note. (but please do put me right) ???

Question - in 2 reed tuning does the 'cent' value stay roughly constant across a row? This implies a faster tremello on higher notes (which is what my own ear tells me). Or is 'cent value' reduced higher up (which might make Lofflet's explanation more correct)?

« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 01:20:23 PM by chrisryall »
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 07:30:52 AM »

Quote
So Lofflet's explanation only makes sense to me with respect to one note. (but please do put me right)
Surely you don't get a beat with only one reed - it takes two to make a beat?
AL
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2009, 07:46:43 AM »

I think it translates more or less in the same way a Gallic shrug translates into English. My understanding of the 'cent' is that it is 1/00th of an 'equal temperament' semitone. 
Yes, that's correct.

Quote
If your A note is at 400Hz then the next note up (Bb) is at about 423Hz. This makes one 'cent' as 0.24Hz. In terms of the beats - 4 cents should be one beat per second (pretty dry)!

But a melodeon isn't just one note. An octave higher we have another A at 800Hz. Doing the same sum the 'cent' there is .475Hz. At this level 4 cents is approx two beats per second.

So Lofflet's explanation only makes sense to me with respect to one note. (but please do put me right) ???
Yes, you are correct again.

I would also refer you to this interesting link posted by Steve Jones a few replies ago:
http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html

Quote
Question - in 2 reed tuning does the 'cent' value stay roughly constant across a row? This implies a faster tremello on higher notes (which is what my own ear tells me). Or is 'cent value' reduced higher up (which might make Lofflet's explanation more correct)?
Yes  - you are correct with your first part. We could really do with Theo and Rees's input here, but as far as I understand it, it depends on how you want your box to sound.

If you keep the cents difference the same between reeds M and M+ all the way up the keyboard, you will end up with the tremolo getting increasingly more rapid (possibly to an unacceptable degree) at the higher end of the pitch range, whereas the lowest notes may not have enough tremolo for one's liking. So you would end up with a box that was dry-ish at the low end and very wet at the top end. (scenario 1)

This is not what most people want, so what you need to do is make the cents difference greater for the lowest notes, gradually reducing the difference as you go towards the highest notes in order to maintain the same rate of tremolo across the range. (scenario 2)

However - having said that, in a wettish tuning I believe there is also a case for increasing the tremolo rate a bit as you go up the keyboard - a sort of compromise between scenarios 1 and 2; it just sounds better. This is where we need expert advice.

I am following this thread with interest as I have (after nearly 11 months!) just embarked upon the fine tuning of my 1-row Stowmarket Special which I built last October. I am currently working on tuning the L M and H reeds to true octaves, which is straightforward enough to understand. I need to decide how to tune the M+ reeds to achieve the slight wetness that I want.

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Steve
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Theo

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2009, 10:12:09 AM »

This is not what most people want, so what you need to do is make the cents difference greater for the lowest notes, gradually reducing the difference as you go towards the highest notes in order to maintain the same rate of tremolo across the range. (scenario 2)

This is method is used, but is not very common

Quote
However - having said that, in a wettish tuning I believe there is also a case for increasing the tremolo rate a bit as you go up the keyboard - a sort of compromise between scenarios 1 and 2; it just sounds better. This is where we need expert advice.

This is typical of the factory tuning on most boxes.   I've seen it described as tuning "on the curve"  because its a gradual change between scenario 1 and 2

Quote
I am following this thread with interest as I have (after nearly 11 months!) just embarked upon the fine tuning of my 1-row Stowmarket Special which I built last October. I am currently working on tuning the L M and H reeds to true octaves, which is straightforward enough to understand.


Also worth checking all the octaves along the row

Quote

I need to decide how to tune the M+ reeds to achieve the slight wetness that I want.

There is a minimum difference of a few cents (usually in the range 2 to 4 cents)  below which you will not get any tremolo, especially when playing hard.  You probably want to get a small amount above this so that your slow tremolo does not disappear as you increase the pressure on the bellows.  The exact cents difference will vary from box to box, and will decrease as you go up the scale.  Its something that I find has to be judged by ear.

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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Chris Brimley

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2009, 11:02:33 AM »

I have read Theo's comments with much interest, here, and I wonder if he or anyone else would like to comment on this:

The idea that a two voice accordeon should have one voice tuned to concert pitch, and a second voice slightly higher, means that the ear 'hears' the note as an average, i.e. higher than concert pitch, as someone has already pointed out.  This means that the rest of the players in a band sound flat in comparison.  I've experienced this particularly with flute players, who find it particularly difficult to play with us succesfully - in fact I had to have a box dry tuned once as the only way of sorting it.  Flautists can adjust their flute out of concert pitch, but why should they have to?  Violinists tend to compensate automatically, assuming they're not playing open strings.

Some people think of this as the unique 'sound' of an accordeon.  Others might reasonably put it more unkindly, and say we're out of tune!

I'm uneasy about all this, because I think it's a little selfish of us to expect everybody else to sound as if they're playing flat. Are there not merits in a new standard, so that the 'average' becomes concert pitch?  Do you do this alteration already, Theo, if anyone wants it? I can see that it would take more work to adjust a box, because you would have to re-tune both of the two voices.   What would be the implications for three voice boxes?  If it's an octave below, would it be best to set the third voice an octave below the mid-point?

And the next point is this - if we want to keep to the current standard, and everybody else tunes their instruments slightly sharp to the average pitch, which box tuning scenario would make this work best?  I would think the fixed cent system would be the one that works, but am I right?
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Falseknight

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2009, 11:20:56 AM »

Woodwind and fretted instruments all use compromised scales (not exactly equally tempered) anyway and bowed players are fretless, so compensate.  The phrase "Near enough for folk" begins to spring to mind.
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mikesamwild

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2009, 11:35:30 AM »

I know a few fiddlers who hate melodeons /button accordions for the 'confusing' tuning.

When I had a two voice Erica I dry tuned it for Irish music sessions  but I much prefer the Joe Cooley degree of wetness and I do seem to detect a swing (geddit?) back e.g. a desire for grey Paolos, old Hohners etc

In a big session or band it all gets mixed up but solo or in small natural group playing it's more of an issue
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Mike in Sheffield

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2009, 11:56:29 AM »

The worse instrument I had ever to play along with a melodeon was a clarinet. Even a lively reel ended up sounding like a tune from a mafia funeral.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2009, 12:04:35 PM »

...
I'm uneasy about all this, because I think it's a little selfish of us to expect everybody else to sound as if they're playing flat. Are there not merits in a new standard, so that the 'average' becomes concert pitch? 
That would be M- and M+ and is the basis of 'Dedic' tuning, as promoted by Ian Dedic, and discussed in at least two threads on this forum. The latest is here:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,1202

Quote
...What would be the implications for three voice boxes?  If it's an octave below, would it be best to set the third voice an octave below the mid-point?
Aye there's the rub.
It depends on how you want your box to sound.
Personally, I like to have the option to use different combinations of voices. So - if I want so-called 'bandoneon' tuning, M L, it is essential for both sets of reeds to be tuned exactly in octaves, and therefore I would need M and L, not M- and L-, because that would indeed be, and sound, flat.  

However, I guess if you only played with all three voices going, you might be able to get away with M- M+ and L.

Otherwise if you've got 3 voices they need to be tuned M M+ and L, so Dedic tuning is not really appropriate for this set-up.

Quote
Flautists can adjust their flute out of concert pitch, but why should they have to?  Violinists tend to compensate automatically, assuming they're not playing open strings.

To be honest, I've never played with any flautist or fiddle player who wasn't able to subconsciously adjust to the tuning of a melodeon's  M and M+ voices.

All woodwind instruments are tuned to a compromise anyway. Modern wind instruments are built to be capable of playing their tuning note at A=440 Hz at a given ambient temperature (usually about 20 C) but for all other notes it may or may not be in tune to an equal temperament scale. It's up to the player to make the minute changes needed with lips, mouth-shape, etc., to play in tune with other instruments. Even string instruments playing open strings will have variations in pitch depending on how much pressure is applied by the bow (it changes the string tension).

As an aside, and to put this tuning thing in context a little, I'm also an orchestral player (clarinet) and although we all tune carefully to the oboe A at the beginning of a rehearsal or performance (as near to A=440 Hz as possible) the true 'standard' pitch will vary quite a lot as the music is in progress; instruments warm up, strings change their tension, etc. I would say it is next to impossible (even for the top professional orchestras) to maintain a standard A=440 during playing. What really matters is that everyone listens really carefully to everyone else during playing and makes minute changes to to the pitch of their instrument as they play each note. This becomes automatic and subconscious the more experienced you are, which is why professional orchestras always sound so good - their players are experts at doing this on-the-fly adjustment.
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Steve
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Theo

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2009, 12:05:44 PM »

I'm uneasy about all this, because I think it's a little selfish of us to expect everybody else to sound as if they're playing flat. Are there not merits in a new standard, so that the 'average' becomes concert pitch?  Do you do this alteration already, Theo, if anyone wants it? I can see that it would take more work to adjust a box, because you would have to re-tune both of the two voices.   What would be the implications for three voice boxes?  If it's an octave below, would it be best to set the third voice an octave below the mid-point?


Can be done, but then you would be out of tune with other box players!

To a fiddler or fluter with a sensitive ear a tremolo tuned box is always going to be a problem.  From comments of people I've played with it is the tremolo that is the problem rather than whether its marginally above concert pitch.   That's one of the reasons I prefer not to play a wet tuned box.

With the woodwind players I rub shoulders with in sessions it tends to be the opposite problem.  The fluter sometimes fails to notice (s)he has gone flat as the room warms up, then everybody else sounds sharp.  Can be a particular problem with low whistle and recorder players who don't have enough breath to get their instrument up to pitch.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2009, 12:24:42 PM »

However - having said that, in a wettish tuning I believe there is also a case for increasing the tremolo rate a bit as you go up the keyboard - a sort of compromise between scenarios 1 and 2; it just sounds better. This is where we need expert advice.
This is typical of the factory tuning on most boxes.   I've seen it described as tuning "on the curve"  because its a gradual change between scenario 1 and 2
Thanks, Theo. I assumed that 'on the curve' meant just that.

Quote
Quote
I am currently working on tuning the L M and H reeds to true octaves, which is straightforward enough to understand.
Also worth checking all the octaves along the row
Yes - I'm doing that as I go along.

Quote
Quote
I need to decide how to tune the M+ reeds to achieve the slight wetness that I want.
There is a minimum difference of a few cents (usually in the range 2 to 4 cents)  below which you will not get any tremolo, especially when playing hard.  You probably want to get a small amount above this so that your slow tremolo does not disappear as you increase the pressure on the bellows.  The exact cents difference will vary from box to box, and will decrease as you go up the scale.  Its something that I find has to be judged by ear.
Theo:
Yes, it's interesting, this acoustic coupling thing - where if you have 2 reeds less than about 4 cents apart they tend to both force each other to vibrate at the same frequency especially if they are played hard, and so you lose the tremolo. I understand what you say about the characteristics varying from instrument to instrument and that you have to ultimately rely on your ear.

I've not touched the tuning of my M+ reeds since you did the initial set-up for me last October. Having played the box for a year, they are a bit all over the place now, ranging from about 2 to 10 cents sharp, not in any consistent pattern along the row. My intended methodology is at present to
(1) tune the lowest M+ reeds to an acceptable tremolo,
(2) tune the highest M+ reeds to an acceptable tremolo,
(3) take note of the cents difference in each case (1) and (2) which should give me the 'end points' on the 'curve' and then tune the remaining M+ reeds to intermediate cents difference, but listening to the results all the time.
Does that sound logical to you?

Cheers,
Steve
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 12:46:25 PM by Steve_freereeder »
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Steve
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