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Author Topic: Dry and wet tuning  (Read 36713 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2009, 12:41:19 PM »

The worse instrument I had ever to play along with a melodeon was a clarinet. Even a lively reel ended up sounding like a tune from a mafia funeral.
I know what you mean. Clarinets can sound 'odd' in the traditional folk context, when we are used to hearing melodeons alongside fiddles, flutes, whistles, etc. I think partly this oddness is due to the tone-quality of the clarinet in the middle of its range (concert E to A in the lower part of the treble stave), combined with the inherent instability of pitch in that region (especially with inexperienced players who also don't listen).

But it doesn't have to be like that - listen to good klezmer musicians, where you have a clarinet playing with an accordion. Sounds fantastic! I'm not a klezmer expert, but I believe many klezmer clarinettists use a C clarinet which has a brighter sound than the more usual B-flat clarinet.

I use a clarinet occasionally in one of the ceilidh bands I play with. I usually use a clarinet in A ('cos the fingerings are easier in sharp keys of D and A!) and I tend to play in the higher part of the range, so I get a brighter sound again.
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HallelujahAl

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2009, 12:51:27 PM »

Can I just but in here and say that I've found this thread to be one of the best threads around for some time. I've learnt so much already. My experience of tuning is only very limited -so thanks to you all.

Also, I play clarinet (Bb) - but within a small (mainly brass) ensemble, and those infinitely small adjustments that Steve mentions orchestral musicians making on the fly are, of course, vital within any group of musicians. I find that by either tightening or loosening my embouchure I'm able - note by note- to make any adjustments necessary to the way the reed plays. Shame we can't do that on a bocs - or can we?
AL
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ganderbox

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2009, 01:15:11 PM »


I'm trying to keep up with this thread, but our internet connection doesn't work very well in the rain (we use satellite, as there is no Broadband here)!
I've been doing a bit of research, (when I can get some internet), and I think I finally understand a bit of the maths involved. Seems also that many other things, like the reeds themselves,  can affect the final sound, and tuning is definitely a black art, not a science.
I managed to work out that 8 cents at A above middle C is roughly equal to 2 beats per second. This is about the degree of wetness which Bernard Loffet describes as "swing attennue".
Steve, I think you said this was the tuning you liked when you visited his shop in Caudan.
My Loffet is swing tuned, which on that basis would be about 6 cents. 4 cents would definitely be dry!
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2009, 01:34:46 PM »

« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 01:38:36 PM by chrisryall »
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Dazbo

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2009, 01:38:32 PM »

However, I guess if you only played with all three voices going, you might be able to get away with M- M+ and L.

Steve, not sure I understand this.  If you have M- and M+ tuned to an average of 440Hz surely the low reed at 220Hz fits in perfectly?

Otherwise if you've got 3 voices they need to be tuned M M+ and L, so Dedic tuning is not really appropriate for this set-up.


As most 3 voice (two or more row) boxes generally have only have the ability to take out the low reed then that's not a problem either?

Anyway, I'll soon find out when I get my Tommy back from Theo ;D
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2009, 01:42:55 PM »

However, I guess if you only played with all three voices going, you might be able to get away with M- M+ and L.

Steve, not sure I understand this.  If you have M- and M+ tuned to an average of 440Hz surely the low reed at 220Hz fits in perfectly?
Correct, but assuming you have a stop to control the individual M reeds (i.e. not like a Tommy!) you're stuffed if you only want to play with one M and the L voice, like I do on my 1-rows or Mory.
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Chris Brimley

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2009, 02:28:14 PM »

Sorry everyone, I had missed the thread where Dedic was discussed.

This has clearly prompted some discussion amongst experts. 

Tentatively raising a hand, I'm tempted to ask, what's the upshot?
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Stiamh

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2009, 03:30:17 PM »

I managed to work out that 8 cents at A above middle C is roughly equal to 2 beats per second. This is about the degree of wetness which Bernard Loffet describes as "swing attenu�".  Steve, I think you said this was the tuning you liked when you visited his shop in Caudan.

Ha... thank you Pauline, that's right, I did really admire that tuning, or at least what BL referred to as « demi-swing atténué ». Well, I know what I like now with a bit more scientific precision. (Wish I hadn't had to find out the hard way!)

Chris - the upshot for me personally is not to bother with either-side tuning ("Dedic" but no longer "Miron" tuning).

Funnily enough I've never had a complaint from fellow musicians about my various boxes being out of tune or impossible to tune to. And I don't think it's a case of their having cloth ears! In fact I find that a bit of tremolo makes all the other instruments mash together nicely.

One thing I have noticed though - most Irish flute and whistle players, and many fiddlers too, play a slightly flat top b. Which I think is actually is what sounds best. The box is having none of it though!

(Edited to make accented text blanked out by new forum software reappear.)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 02:37:06 PM by Steve Jones »
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Dazbo

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2009, 04:05:08 PM »


Correct, but assuming you have a stop to control the individual M reeds (i.e. not like a Tommy!) you're stuffed if you only want to play with one M and the L voice, like I do on my 1-rows or Mory.

Thanks for clearing that up, I took your statement to refer to any three voice box with a low reed rather than ones where you can play one middle reed in isolation (or with the low reed).
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2009, 05:52:31 PM »

demi


Yes, demi-swing attenue was what I meant i.e. a bit wetter than swing, but not as wet as demi-swing.

I had spotted my mistake, but couldn't get back in to correct it. However, it has now stopped raining and the sun has come out, so we're back in business. (:)
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Accordion Dave

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2009, 01:45:00 AM »

A month or so ago, I bought a piano accordion, clearly labelled as "musette". It has a low set of reeds and three middle sets of reeds tuned apart from each other.

I can select one set of middle reeds which is an octave above the low set. I can add a set of middle reeds tuned slightly above the A440 set. I can also add to that mix a set of reeds tuned slightly below A440.

This accordion also has a preset to mute the A440 set of reeds and play only the flat and sharp sets of reeds. To my ear, they sound almost a half step apart, WAY TOO WET for me.

However, with the middle set of reeds in the mix, the accordion sounds amazing to me. (I never use the preset that mutes the middle set of reeds.)

I played for several hours at the German Club breakfast this morning and got a lot of positive comments about the sound of my "new" accordion.

I jammed with a Steirische Harmonika player and the two boxes sounded great together.

A couple of weeks ago I played this accordion at the monthly jam session with several guitars, a banjo, a mandolin, and an upright bass. I found that the preset with two middle reeds tuned slightly apart seemed to work the best.

I have not put a frequency counter on this "musette" accordion yet, but it should be interesting to see just how "wet" it is.
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AirTime

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2011, 11:52:47 PM »

There are lots of threads in "tuning", but I thought I would stick my questions on this one!

I hear some wet-tuned Hohners on Youtube that sound almost perfect to me, but many others sound somewhat out-of-tune on some notes. Is a traditionally wet-tuned melodeon (Pokerwork/Erica style) particularly hard to tune "perfectly"? Does going with a drier tuning make it easier to balance the tuning across the keyboard & between the trebles & basses.

I just bought an old EbBb Hohner that will need re-furbishing - so I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to have it tuned somewhat drier?
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Lester

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2011, 07:39:08 AM »

There are lots of threads in "tuning", but I thought I would stick my questions on this one!

I hear some wet-tuned Hohners on Youtube that sound almost perfect to me, but many others sound somewhat out-of-tune on some notes. Is a traditionally wet-tuned melodeon (Pokerwork/Erica style) particularly hard to tune "perfectly"? Does going with a drier tuning make it easier to balance the tuning across the keyboard & between the trebles & basses.

I just bought an old EbBb Hohner that will need re-furbishing - so I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to have it tuned somewhat drier?

"Is a traditionally wet-tuned melodeon (Pokerwork/Erica style) particularly hard to tune "perfectly"?"

Nope, if anything it is easier, in my experience, to tune wet boxes "perfectly" as the tolerances are a little wider (if the required tremolo is say 20 cents 19-21 sounds OK, if the required tremolo is 5 cents you need 4.75 to 5.25 for the same accuracy).

What you are probably hearing is Hohner's unique tuning method ie not very accurate and the fact that people seem happy to play wet boxes with more variance in tremolo and tuning than they will tolerate with dry boxes.

As to tuning your new old Hohner drier that will be down to your personal preference, mine is to tune to 20 cents at A440 (standard Hohner Pokerwork tuning) but I have just completed one that the owner wanted to be 10 Cents and A440 and that sounded fine as well

Theo

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2011, 08:09:04 AM »

but many others sound somewhat out-of-tune on some notes.

If it sounds out of tune then it is out of tune.  Though having said that people do vary in their perception of musical tones and what is out of tune to you may be acceptable to someone else.
Quote

I just bought an old EbBb Hohner that will need re-furbishing - so I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to have it tuned somewhat drier?

Old (roughly pre-WW2)  Hohners have somewhat less tremolo than most post-war Hohners.   Also Hohner reeds from the older period were made using different processes and materials and they do sound different, so I'd suggest keeping the tuning as it is to begin with unless you are very definite that you want less tremolo.

[pedant warning]
You cant have "drier" tuning,  tremolo can vary from wet to alsmost dry, but dry is dry ie absence of beats.   So you can have different degrees of wetness/tremolo/beat rate, but dry defines the end point of the range where there are zero beats, and you can't have different amounts of zero.
[/pedant warning]
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2011, 08:43:26 AM »

[pedant warning]You cant have "drier" tuning,  tremolo can vary from wet to alsmost dry, but dry is dry ie absence of beats.   So you can have different degrees of wetness/tremolo/beat rate, but dry defines the end point of the range where there are zero beats, and you can't have different amounts of zero.[/pedant warning]

Hmmph! Absolute zero is 'bloody cold' if I remember my physics correctly.  But that doesn't stop us saying "cold today", "definitely colder than October, this'll warm you". If you aren't going to to allow us a "dry"-wet continuum scale - er, may we have a different word please.  :|glug

I personally see no problem in adapting words in this way. It's part of English, very much so. Why we still talk of 'films' down in Xray, whereas we've been 100% digital for several years. And AFAIR the computer's bit patterns allow +/- zero ???  

PS .. {look a bit of finding} but it seems this Black Hole is the slowest beat ever!  Dry or what?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 08:56:26 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Lester

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2011, 09:25:26 AM »

[pedant warning]
You cant have "drier" tuning,  tremolo can vary from wet to almost dry, but dry is dry ie absence of beats.   So you can have different degrees of wetness/tremolo/beat rate, but dry defines the end point of the range where there are zero beats, and you can't have different amounts of zero.
[/pedant warning]

Does that mean a sound can only be LOUD or soft not louder or softer  ;)

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2011, 10:15:52 AM »


Does that mean a sound can only be LOUD or soft not louder or softer  ;)

A better analogy in that domain is that you can't have silenter than silent.
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Theo

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2011, 10:19:06 AM »


Does that mean a sound can only be LOUD or soft not louder or softer  ;)

A better analogy in that domain is that you can't have silenter than silent.


Exaclty.

Please don't take this too seriously! >:E

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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2011, 03:08:27 PM »

What's wrong with less wet, slower beat or less tremolo?
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Earbrass

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2011, 03:27:23 PM »

I henceforward resolve to refer to that large revolving drum thing in the utility room as a "tumble wetness-reducer", since it has never succeeded in ousting every last molecule of water from a load. >:E ;D
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