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Author Topic: Dry and wet tuning  (Read 36714 times)

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2011, 06:18:41 PM »

Doesn't all that much matter what the shape of a wave is as any repeating wave pattern can be broken down into a series of sine waves (technically it doesn't have to be sin() -but other wave forms have AFAIK virtually no 'application'). The Kettering illustration is rather nice (near the bottom).

In the Fourrier plane these would appear as 2 blips. Of course our single reed is more complex than this and has harmonics (series of blips). On top of this the reeds may even interact mechanically like the classic weights on lines on a single rope. So  vibrato affects become possible too.

I think the tuner does rather well to find a single frequency out of all this mess. I suspect it doesn't actually FFT the input, merely counts peaks and displays an average per second, mapping to a 'note' if it can. Seems (I saw this moning) I can now download this as an app to my phone!  All for £1.50. Incredible. Useful ... were I ever to take up guitar again :|glug

Has anyone used these electronic marvels for a melodeon?


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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2011, 09:39:04 AM »

There is an animation at the bottom of this page http://www.kettering.edu/physics/drussell/Demos/superposition/superposition.html that I think answers the question of what the tuner hears assuming the sounds from the two reeds are at about the same level. I believe the sound from a reed is a triangular wave rather than a sine wave so the real picture (as always) is more complicated.

That is really interesting, it says "The "beat" wave oscillates with the average frequency, and its amplitude envelope varies according to the difference frequency." which supports the Dedic tuning position of tuning either side of the desired frequency.
Yes - excellent, interesting link and very clear explanation.
Dedic tuning all round then, folks?
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2011, 09:45:19 AM »

On top of this the reeds may even interact mechanically like the classic weights on lines on a single rope. So  vibrato affects become possible too.
I'm sure this happens. I've found that if the frequency difference between the M0 reed and M+ tremolo reed is less than about 3 cents (at A=440 Hz) the acoustic coupling between the two reeds pulls them both into a single frequency note with no tremolo, which is a pain when you are trying to tune a box with a very light slow tremolo. Almost counter-intuitively, the acoustic coupling seems to be minimised and the tremolo improved by fitting a brass strip connecting the two reed blocks concerned, rendering them more rigid.
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Lester

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2011, 09:46:45 AM »

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2011, 12:03:20 PM »


There is an animation at the bottom of this page http://www.kettering.edu/physics/drussell/Demos/superposition/superposition.html that I think answers the question of what the tuner hears assuming the sounds from the two reeds are at about the same level. I believe the sound from a reed is a triangular wave rather than a sine wave so the real picture (as always) is more complicated.

Is there an error here, quoting from the page linked by JD:

Quote
This resulting particle motion is the product of two travelling waves. One part is a sine wave which oscillates with the average frequency f = ½(f1 + f2). This is the frequency which is perceived by a listener. The other part is a cosine wave which oscillates with the difference frequency f = ½(f1 - f2). This term controls the amplitude "envelope" of the wave and causes the perception of "beats". The beat frequency is actually twice the difference frequency, fbeat = (f1 - f2).

If I tune two reeds one at the pitch A=440Hz, and one at A=441Hz, according to the quoted formula I should hear a beat of 2Hz, but I believe I hear a beat of 1Hz.  ???
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2011, 12:22:59 PM »

If I tune two reeds one at the pitch A=440Hz, and one at A=441Hz, according to the quoted formula I should hear a beat of 2Hz, but I believe I hear a beat of 1Hz.  ???
I had to look at the formulae for a few minutes too. But I think they are correct and the explanation is as follows....
The difference frequency is given by the equation:
f(diff) = ½(f1 - f2)

This refers to a cosine wave envelope which has alternating positive and negative peaks: one complete cycle consists of a positive and a negative peak. But we hear the beat frequency as a pulse for each peak, regardless of whether it is positive or negative (in electrical alternating current terms, our ears 'rectify' the waveform to produce two 'positive' pulses for each cycle).

So in your example of two frequencies at 440 and 441, the difference frequency fdiff is  ½(442 - 441) = 0.5 Hz
But the beat frequency fbeat is twice that, i.e. 2 x ½(442 - 441) = 1 Hz, which is what your ears hear.
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waltzman

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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2011, 12:34:26 PM »

When two slightly out of tune reeds are sounded together, so long as the loudness of the two reeds is the same, the needle on an electronic tuner indeed usually wobbles about the mean (average) pitch, particularly if the resulting tremolo (pitch difference in Hz) is fairly slow. However, the human ear seems to perceive it purely as an amplitude (volume) change of the mean pitch. This is why Viennese or 'Dedic' tuning works. If it didn't work, unison octaves and fifths would not sound as sweet in Dedic tuning as they in fact do.  

If you are implying that octaves and fifths are sweeter in dedic tuning than standard tuning that doesn't make sense to me at all.  If standard tuning is perceived as slightly sharp across the scale and dedic tuning is perceived as on pitch this would not change the perceived intervals such as a fifth or an octave within the two different tunings.  A fifth should be just as 'sweet' in standard tuning as in dedic. Am I missing something?
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2011, 01:18:34 PM »

This refers to a cosine wave envelope which has alternating positive and negative peaks: one complete cycle consists of a positive and a negative peak. But we hear the beat frequency as a pulse for each peak, regardless of whether it is positive or negative

Excellent explanation. I agree that I think that's what's happening.

If you are implying that octaves and fifths are sweeter in dedic tuning than standard tuning that doesn't make sense to me at all.  If standard tuning is perceived as slightly sharp across the scale and dedic tuning is perceived as on pitch this would not change the perceived intervals such as a fifth or an octave within the two different tunings.  A fifth should be just as 'sweet' in standard tuning as in dedic. Am I missing something?

If you set the tremolo to the same number of beats per second on two notes an octave apart, the mid frequencies are not an octave apart in standard "concert+sharp" tuning.

E.g.
tune 440 and 444 for 4 beats/sec, mid frequency 442
tune 880 and 884 for 4 beats/sec, mid frequency is 882 which is not twice 442

With Dedic tuning, the figures are:
438 and 442 -> mid = 440
878 and 882 -> mid = 880

Actually it is common to set the tremolo a little faster for higher notes, but not exactly in proportion because that would sound wrong with the top end being too wet.

In addition, for instruments tuned to equal temperament (essential for fully chromatic, advisable for 2or 3 rows + accidentals) the fifths are already out of tune so the finer points of tremolo intonation are wasted.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2011, 01:34:54 PM »

When two slightly out of tune reeds are sounded together, so long as the loudness of the two reeds is the same, the needle on an electronic tuner indeed usually wobbles about the mean (average) pitch, particularly if the resulting tremolo (pitch difference in Hz) is fairly slow. However, the human ear seems to perceive it purely as an amplitude (volume) change of the mean pitch. This is why Viennese or 'Dedic' tuning works. If it didn't work, unison octaves and fifths would not sound as sweet in Dedic tuning as they in fact do.  

If you are implying that octaves and fifths are sweeter in dedic tuning than standard tuning that doesn't make sense to me at all.  If standard tuning is perceived as slightly sharp across the scale and dedic tuning is perceived as on pitch this would not change the perceived intervals such as a fifth or an octave within the two different tunings.  A fifth should be just as 'sweet' in standard tuning as in dedic. Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing something, sorry.

Here's an example of an octave interval between the notes A4 and A5 using, say, a 4 Hz tremolo:
'Normal' tuning:
A4 Reed 1 = 440 Hz, Reed 2 = 444 Hz, Perceived pitch = 442 Hz
A5 Reed 1 = 880 Hz, Reed 2 = 884 Hz, Perceived pitch = 882 Hz (i.e. somewhat flat of the true octave frequency of 884 Hz)
Therefore when the two notes are sounded together e.g. in a RH chord, it will sound 'rough' because the interval is not a true octave.

However, in Dedic tuning:
A4 Reed 1 = 438 Hz, Reed 2 = 442 Hz. Perceived pitch = 440 Hz
A5 Reed 1 = 878 Hz, Reed 2 = 882 Hz Perceived pitch = 880 Hz
This time the perceived pitches of the octave interval is exactly double the frequency and so it will sound sweet and in tune.

You can extend these calculations to all other intervals, not just octaves, but they're the easiest to illustrate the principle.  

The other advantage of Dedic tuning lies in the LH bass notes and chords. Because these are not tuned with a tremolo, but should be 'spot-on', the bass notes will always sound in tune with the RH notes.
E.g. a LH bass A fundamental with three reeds tuned at 110 Hz, 220 Hz and 440 Hz will always sound in tune with a Dedic-tuned RH side, in this example the perceived pitches of the RH side A notes will be 220, 440, 880, 1760 Hz, etc. - always doubling the frequency and always a double multiple of the LH side. In a non-Dedic tuned instrument, there will be increasing discrepancy between the LH and RH sides as you go higher in pitch.

Hope this explains the basic principle of Dedic tuning and why it is indeed different from standard tuning.

Edit - Anahata posted almost the identical explanation as I was typing this!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:41:57 PM by Steve_freereeder »
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2011, 02:09:26 PM »

Thanks Steve, that was a very helpful explanation.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2011, 02:45:41 PM »

I'm sure this happens. I've found that if the frequency difference between the M0 reed and M+ tremolo reed is less than about 3 cents (at A=440 Hz) the acoustic coupling between the two reeds pulls them both into a single frequency note with no tremolo, which is a pain when you are trying to tune a box with a very light slow tremolo. Almost counter-intuitively, the acoustic coupling seems to be minimised and the tremolo improved by fitting a brass strip connecting the two reed blocks concerned, rendering them more rigid.

I am dealing with this condition right now on my Supertone. I'll have to construct some strips for it. Have done so already on my (slightly wetter) Hohner 3 row. Sorted things out nicely!  8)
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2011, 03:06:47 PM »

In addition, for instruments tuned to equal temperament (essential for fully chromatic, advisable for 2or 3 rows + accidentals) the fifths are already out of tune so the finer points of tremolo intonation are wasted.


Fifts are indeed too narrow by just under 2 cents, which is probably inaudible if you have a 4Hz tremolo built in, but majur thirds are too wide by almost 15 cents (equivalent to a beat of about 3Hz) and sound terrible once you ear gets sensitised to them (which mine has been). 

So a quick test of whether you will see an improvement with Dedic (aka Vienese) tuning is to play some major thirds and see if you notice how bad they sound.  If they sound ok to you, then the smaller mis-tunings which are addressed by Dedic/Vienese tuning will probably not be noticable.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2011, 03:12:53 PM »

On top of this the reeds may even interact mechanically like the classic weights on lines on a single rope. So  vibrato affects become possible too.
I'm sure this happens. I've found that if the frequency difference between the M0 reed and M+ tremolo reed is less than about 3 cents (at A=440 Hz) the acoustic coupling between the two reeds pulls them both into a single frequency note with no tremolo, which is a pain when you are trying to tune a box with a very light slow tremolo. Almost counter-intuitively, the acoustic coupling seems to be minimised and the tremolo improved by fitting a brass strip connecting the two reed blocks concerned, rendering them more rigid.
This sounds a bit like phase-locking where you try to synchronise two electronic oscillators with a feedback loop. Presumably the rigid bar between reed blocks reduces the amount of mechanical feedback between reeds (at certain frequencies) and allows the frequency difference between reeds to be reduced without locking taking place. A bit like replacing the rope with a solid bar.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 03:14:56 PM by JD »
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2011, 03:22:15 PM »

In addition, for instruments tuned to equal temperament (essential for fully chromatic, advisable for 2or 3 rows + accidentals) the fifths are already out of tune so the finer points of tremolo intonation are wasted.


Fifts are indeed too narrow by just under 2 cents, which is probably inaudible if you have a 4Hz tremolo built in, but majur thirds are too wide by almost 15 cents (equivalent to a beat of about 3Hz) and sound terrible once you ear gets sensitised to them (which mine has been). 

So a quick test of whether you will see an improvement with Dedic (aka Vienese) tuning is to play some major thirds and see if you notice how bad they sound.  If they sound ok to you, then the smaller mis-tunings which are addressed by Dedic/Vienese tuning will probably not be noticable.

Since we are already dealing with tremolo (assuming the instrument is not dry tuned) wouldn't the slight differences in the octaves and fifths in standard tuning just be perceived as another layer of tremolo?
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2011, 03:24:20 PM »

Quote
Here's an example of an octave interval between the notes A4 and A5 using, say, a 4 Hz tremolo:
'Normal' tuning:
A4 Reed 1 = 440 Hz, Reed 2 = 444 Hz, Perceived pitch = 442 Hz
A5 Reed 1 = 880 Hz, Reed 2 = 884 Hz, Perceived pitch = 882 Hz (i.e. somewhat flat of the true octave frequency of 884 Hz)
Therefore when the two notes are sounded together e.g. in a RH chord, it will sound 'rough' because the interval is not a true octave.

However, in Dedic tuning:
A4 Reed 1 = 438 Hz, Reed 2 = 442 Hz. Perceived pitch = 440 Hz
A5 Reed 1 = 878 Hz, Reed 2 = 882 Hz Perceived pitch = 880 Hz
This time the perceived pitches of the octave interval is exactly double the frequency and so it will sound sweet and in tune.

You can extend these calculations to all other intervals, not just octaves, but they're the easiest to illustrate the principle.  

The other advantage of Dedic tuning lies in the LH bass notes and chords. Because these are not tuned with a tremolo, but should be 'spot-on', the bass notes will always sound in tune with the RH notes.
E.g. a LH bass A fundamental with three reeds tuned at 110 Hz, 220 Hz and 440 Hz will always sound in tune with a Dedic-tuned RH side, in this example the perceived pitches of the RH side A notes will be 220, 440, 880, 1760 Hz, etc. - always doubling the frequency and always a double multiple of the LH side. In a non-Dedic tuned instrument, there will be increasing discrepancy between the LH and RH sides as you go higher in pitch.

Hope this explains the basic principle of Dedic tuning and why it is indeed different from standard tuning.

OK. So if I'm following this correctly, there is a case to be made for Dedic tuning being inherently superior to standard (pitch + sharp) tuning ... except for people who can't hear the difference. In addition, there may be a willingness to accept the slight dissonance as "characteristic"  of the melodeon sound. Finally, is the trend towards a less wet tuning indicative of a desire to move away from that characteristic sound?
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2011, 05:18:04 PM »

OK. So if I'm following this correctly, there is a case to be made for Dedic tuning being inherently superior to standard (pitch + sharp) tuning ... except for people who can't hear the difference. In addition, there may be a willingness to accept the slight dissonance as "characteristic"  of the melodeon sound. Finally, is the trend towards a less wet tuning indicative of a desire to move away from that characteristic sound?
I think Dedic tuning is definitely worthwhile with a moderate tremolo. With a very wet rapid tremolo, it is so out of tune anyway (to my ears  :o ) that the concepts of dissonance and consonance are rendered rather academic. With a very light, slow tremolo, I think Dedic tuning offers little advantage over conventional tuning.

I have a Hohner C/F Erica which I have put into Dedic tuning with the range of tremolo from about 2.4 Hz at A=220, 4.3 Hz at A=440 and 5.2 Hz at A=880. It sounds really very nice indeed, and the basses/chords fit the RH side beautifully. It still has the characteristic Hohner sound but very mellow, more reminiscent of the 1930s instruments.

Players of other instruments also welcome a Dedic-tuned box, as it is perceived by them as being pleasantly in tune. A non-Dedic Hohner will always sound noticeably sharp when compared with a concertina, piano or keyboard.

The main disadvantage of Dedic tuning is that it takes longer to set up the initial tuning; you can't just tune one set of reeds to your electronic tuner and then adjust the tremolo reeds by ear separately. Both sets need to be tuned with a known (calculated) offset from concert pitch, so it is more exacting work for the human tuner.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2013, 04:20:41 PM »

Is it difficult to keep a dry-tuned instrument sounding good? since the standard would be relatively pure,  so that anything that goes even incrementally out of tune would destroy the standard... I play (and therefore constantly tune) the harpsichord, which uses a "dry" tuning, much more so than the modern piano. After setting the temperament in the middle octave, the rest of the harpsichord strings are tuned dead pure. In that scenario, any little thing that's off really reeks of out-of-tune. It requires constant maintenance. If that were the case with a dry-tuned melodeon, and you couldn't tune it yourself (or even if you could), it would not be a selling point, imo.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2013, 04:44:39 PM »

....... I play (and therefore constantly tune)

I think that about sums up the situation for any instrument with strings. Regarding free reeds, they are much more stable, but still have conditions where they shift. And when they do shift, it will be much more apparent on a dry tuned box than a wet one. Which is probably why the default factory tunings for Hohners (and maybe some other brands) is rather wet. I have noticed that since I began tuning my own boxes, that there would always be some shifting and settling after a period of play. I typically touch up my boxes when they do. Eventually, the touch-up interval gets longer and longer, maybe years. But I don't think reeds are immune to needing a bit of maintenance now and then.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »

OK. So if I'm following this correctly, there is a case to be made for Dedic tuning being inherently superior to standard (pitch + sharp) tuning ... except for people who can't hear the difference. In addition, there may be a willingness to accept the slight dissonance as "characteristic"  of the melodeon sound. Finally, is the trend towards a less wet tuning indicative of a desire to move away from that characteristic sound?
I think Dedic tuning is definitely worthwhile with a moderate tremolo. With a very wet rapid tremolo, it is so out of tune anyway (to my ears  :o ) that the concepts of dissonance and consonance are rendered rather academic. With a very light, slow tremolo, I think Dedic tuning offers little advantage over conventional tuning.

I have a Hohner C/F Erica which I have put into Dedic tuning with the range of tremolo from about 2.4 Hz at A=220, 4.3 Hz at A=440 and 5.2 Hz at A=880. It sounds really very nice indeed, and the basses/chords fit the RH side beautifully. It still has the characteristic Hohner sound but very mellow, more reminiscent of the 1930s instruments.

Players of other instruments also welcome a Dedic-tuned box, as it is perceived by them as being pleasantly in tune. A non-Dedic Hohner will always sound noticeably sharp when compared with a concertina, piano or keyboard.

The main disadvantage of Dedic tuning is that it takes longer to set up the initial tuning; you can't just tune one set of reeds to your electronic tuner and then adjust the tremolo reeds by ear separately. Both sets need to be tuned with a known (calculated) offset from concert pitch, so it is more exacting work for the human tuner.

I think Steve's pretty much summed up all the reasons why I came up with the idea :-)

It's particularly liked by other instrument players with perfect pitch, like Penny who used to play with me in The Committee Band, who before the idea spread said I had the only melodeon in the country that played in tune -- this was in the days when most bexes were fairly wet-tuned. The difference really shows up when playing with concertina since this is another reed instrument with plenty of harmonics, they always used to sound flat when playing with boxes in anything other than dry tuning.

But it does only work in MM boxes without stops (or LMM with only a low reed stop), otherwise when you take one of the M reeds out the remaining one is out of tune.

I have to say that I'm rather pleased that the idea has finally become widespread (only twenty years or so after I started telling people about it!), it's nice to have made a contribution to better-sounding English boxes :-)

Ian

P.S. With modern tuners which can offset pitches (or Dirk's which can do this and measures all reeds at once) it's no more work than conventional tuning.
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Re: Dry and wet tuning
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2013, 02:53:30 PM »

Martyn White retuned my Walters this way recently with trem on the LL pair as well as the MM. The result is sweet.
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