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[Pat McInnis]

Alright, I'm interested in learning what I can about tuning reeds, so hopefully I can pick some brains. First off I will need to build a simple tuning bench. I have a bellows that I will be able to use for this and I've watched a few videos on tuning but I still have a lot to learn. Any and all advice would be appreciated. I have pretty good tools and can solder if need be.

[Steve_freereeder]

Short circuiting all the way up to the finish line, I will point out that whatever sort of tuning bellows, bench or whatever contraption you build, the final tuning has to be done with the reed blocks in situ in the instrument and ideally using the instrument's own bellows. This is to reproduce as far as possible the actual conditions of real playing. There are quite a few Youtube videos out there where this concept is totally ignored.

Reeds tuned outside the instrument are very rarely in tune when replaced into the instrument. They might be somewhere near in tune, but that's all. The pitch of the reeds is very much influenced by the proximity of the other reed blocks, the bellows folds, the rigidity of the reed block clamping, etc.

[Theo]

Whilst I agree with Steve you will find that in the early stages of learning how to tune reeds you should start outside the box just so you can see what you are doing while you learn to use the basic tuners toolkit. And to begin with forget about soldering,  it’s not a major part of tuning, just something that can get you out of a jam when you don’t have the right reed.

[Rog]

My main advice is...use your ears. Play the instrument and listen to it.

[jorden]

Buy an old PA and practice on that.

[Pat McInnis]

Whilst I agree with Steve you will find that in the early stages of learning how to tune reeds you should start outside the box just so you can see what you are doing while you learn to use the basic tuners toolkit. And to begin with forget about soldering,  it’s not a major part of tuning, just something that can get you out of a jam when you don’t have the right reed.

this is my thought as well. I need to start somewhere and although some may think that I'm leapfrogging to the finish line, this is what I want to do and feel like the more hands on I have on the projects, the more I will understand what I'm doing. I have been warned off of experimenting with the sought after "H" reeds on my Hohners but for now this is all I have. Do I wax in the valves with fresh reeds without tuning? Sounds counterproductive to me. Finding a cheap box to practice on might be my answer.

[Rog]

You don’t say what resources you have, but here are a few. It’s worth reading them all.
John Reuther - Accordion Repairs Made Easy
Thierry Benetoux - two books, both are pretty good.
web site - Accordion Revival, an excellent resource.
This forum.. Melodeon.net - use the search facility.

[Pat McInnis]

You don’t say what resources you have, but here are a few. It’s worth reading them all.
John Reuther - Accordion Repairs Made Easy
Thierry Benetoux - two books, both are pretty good.
web site - Accordion Revival, an excellent resource.
This forum.. Melodeon.net - use the search facility.
[/quote

I have very little direction, which is why I started this thread. I do however take direction rather well and try to read as much as I can online. Sadly, I don't have anyone in my area to consult but I'll figure it out. I just need a push in the right direction.

[mselic]

I have been warned off of experimenting with the sought after "H" reeds on my Hohners but for now this is all I have. Do I wax in the valves with fresh reeds without tuning? Sounds counterproductive to me. Finding a cheap box to practice on might be my answer.

Yes, finding a cheap box is good to practice on, although a Hohner is exactly what I would start with. I know the Hohner “H” reeds have attained something of fantastical status, but I honestly don’t think they’re that special, and prefer the later reeds myself!

Could you clarify your question about the “wax in the valves with fresh reeds..”?

[Pat McInnis]

I have been warned off of experimenting with the sought after "H" reeds on my Hohners but for now this is all I have. Do I wax in the valves with fresh reeds without tuning? Sounds counterproductive to me. Finding a cheap box to practice on might be my answer.

Yes, finding a cheap box is good to practice on, although a Hohner is exactly what I would start with. I know the Hohner “H” reeds have attained something of fantastical status, but I honestly don’t think they’re that special, and prefer the later reeds myself!

Could you clarify your question about the “wax in the valves with fresh reeds..”?

Haha, a bit of dislexia on my end. Good catch.

[Pearse Rossa]

... Any and all advice would be appreciated. I have pretty good tools...

Here's my advice; put the tools away for now.
You should read everything available on the subject here in the forum archive.
Take notes and try to visualize the whole process.
There are some good YouTube videos available as well.
Come back with specific questions later if you still have any.

[mselic]

Did I really say “fantastical”? That’s not a word...

[Steve_freereeder]

Whilst I agree with Steve you will find that in the early stages of learning how to tune reeds you should start outside the box just so you can see what you are doing while you learn to use the basic tuners toolkit. And to begin with forget about soldering,  it’s not a major part of tuning, just something that can get you out of a jam when you don’t have the right reed.

this is my thought as well. I need to start somewhere and although some may think that I'm leapfrogging to the finish line, this is what I want to do and feel like the more hands on I have on the projects, the more I will understand what I'm doing. I have been warned off of experimenting with the sought after "H" reeds on my Hohners but for now this is all I have. Do I wax in the valves with fresh reeds without tuning? Sounds counterproductive to me. Finding a cheap box to practice on might be my answer.

Yes, of course you need to make a start. My comment about the final tuning being done with the reeds in situ in the instrument was mostly to highlight this end stage - something which many Youtube videos fail to address.

Do I wax in the valves with fresh reeds without tuning?

I assume you mean 'wax in the reeds with fresh valves before tuning'? Yes - get the reeds waxed on to the reed blocks before doing any tuning.
Then the workflow goes something like this:

1. With reedblocks in place, isolate a single bank of reeds e.g. M⁰ 'at pitch reeds' by using a strip of paper underneath the reedblock vents to stop the tremolo reeds sounding.
2. With the reedblocks still in the instrument, play each M⁰ note in turn and write down the actual pitch of each note in terms of cents difference from what it should be (assuming the target is zero cents offset from equal temerament). Let's call this difference 'offset X'.
3. Remove the reed block and sound each reed on the tuning bellows. Again, write down the pitch of each note: 'pitch Y'.  You will probably find that the pitch will be around 3 - 5 cents sharp on the tuning bellows compared with what it was in the instrument.
4. Then (still outside the instrument, on the tuning bellows) adjust the tuning of each reed by the amount of 'offset X' required: pitch Y ± offset X
5. Replace the reedblock in the instrument and check the tuning of each note again as in step 1. Hopefully the pitch should now be close to what is required.
6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until the reeds are sounding at the required target pitch.
7. Repeat steps 1 - 6 with all the other reed blocks in turn. For the tremolo reeds you will need to decide how much offset is required to give you the degree of tremolo you want. There are various threads on this forum (and elsewhere) to help you do this, so I recommend you do some research, if you haven't done so already.

This method just described is often called 'tuning by offsets' for obvious reasons. Once you are more experienced in tuning, it is generally better and gives faster and more consistent results to tune the reeds directly in the instrument, but the restricted space can make it more awkward for a beginner to manipulate the tools. The crucial thing to be aware of is that the true pitch of a reed can only be determined when it is in situ in the instrument along with all the other components. Apologies for keeping on emphasising this but it really is the case.

[Pat McInnis]

Do I wax in the valves with fresh reeds without tuning?

I assume you mean 'wax in the reeds with fresh valves before tuning'? Yes - get the reeds waxed on to the reed blocks before doing any tuning.
Then the workflow goes something like this:

1. With reedblocks in place, isolate a single bank of reeds e.g. M⁰ 'at pitch reeds' by using a strip of paper underneath the reedblock vents to stop the tremolo reeds sounding.
2. With the reedblocks still in the instrument, play each M⁰ note in turn and write down the actual pitch of each note in terms of cents difference from what it should be (assuming the target is zero cents offset from equal temerament). Let's call this difference 'offset X'.
3. Remove the reed block and sound each reed on the tuning bellows. Again, write down the pitch of each note: 'pitch Y'.  You will probably find that the pitch will be around 3 - 5 cents sharp on the tuning bellows compared with what it was in the instrument.
4. Then (still outside the instrument, on the tuning bellows) adjust the tuning of each reed by the amount of 'offset X' required: pitch Y ± offset X
5. Replace the reedblock in the instrument and check the tuning of each note again as in step 1. Hopefully the pitch should now be close to what is required.
6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until the reeds are sounding at the required target pitch.
7. Repeat steps 1 - 6 with all the other reed blocks in turn. For the tremolo reeds you will need to decide how much offset is required to give you the degree of tremolo you want. There are various threads on this forum (and elsewhere) to help you do this, so I recommend you do some research, if you haven't done so already.

This method just described is often called 'tuning by offsets' for obvious reasons. Once you are more experienced in tuning, it is generally better and gives faster and more consistent results to tune the reeds directly in the instrument, but the restricted space can make it more awkward for a beginner to manipulate the tools. The crucial thing to be aware of is that the true pitch of a reed can only be determined when it is in situ in the instrument along with all the other components. Apologies for keeping on emphasising this but it really is the case.
[/quote]


Yes, once again, I meant wax reeds not valves. I'm a bit overworked right now so my brain is bit soft.

Some of the videos i have watched are tuning individual reed plates on a table. Is this possibly called a pre-tune? After this stage I'm guessing that new valves can be glued in place and reeds waxed onto the blocks. As a novice with no tuning table I suppose that I would skip that bit and go straight to your method.

Got it.

[Pearse Rossa]

Some of the videos i have watched are tuning individual reed plates on a table. Is this possibly called a pre-tune?

If you are putting the original reeds back into the box, then you don't need to worry about approximate-tuning
individual reeds on a tuning table.
Tuning loose reeds on a table might be necessary (not always) on some 'new from the supplier' reeds.
Occasionally, you might find one in a batch that is very wide of the mark.
Also, if you are making some fairly drastic change such as tuning +/- a semitone for instance.
Of course, reed manufacturers will have to tune loose reeds individually... maybe that is what you saw in the video?

[Steve_freereeder]

Some of the videos i have watched are tuning individual reed plates on a table. Is this possibly called a pre-tune?

I agree with what Pearse said.
 
Also, reed makers usually deliberately pre-tune the reeds to be about 10 cents sharp, knowing that some degree of adjustment will be needed by the instrument maker/tuner when the reeds are finally installed. It is generally easier to flatten the pitch of a reed than to sharpen it, especially the pull reeds which are hidden inside the reed chamber.

[baz parkes]

Did I really say “fantastical”? That’s not a word...

"'When I use a word' said Humpty Dumpty 'it means EXACTLY what I want it to mean...nothing more and nothing less.'"

Lewis Carroll. 

[John MacKenzie (Cugiok)]

'tis so a word

SJ