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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 24669 times)

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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #240 on: January 27, 2019, 02:40:44 PM »

Ah Yes, thank you Roger.

See Pete - a Wonky wubbleyou!
I rest my case m'lud
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #241 on: January 28, 2019, 06:58:51 AM »

Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.
Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?
Hello Nigelr - I've retaken the photo of tunes 441-445. It wins the biggest improvement of a retake so far. Hope you find this works better for you. - Sandy
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 04:51:12 PM by Sandra Cameron »
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #242 on: January 28, 2019, 07:26:10 AM »

I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House. The final bar on the line was truncated. I added the note it was likely to be, based on another source of the tune and the way the rest of the tune is scored and noted what I had done as an NB comment..
Comparing with the manuscript, there doesn't seem to be any notes missing on the jpg of Pinkie's House #394. Is there another tune that you are missing notes on ?
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #243 on: January 28, 2019, 08:14:59 AM »

I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House.
Comparing with the manuscript, there doesn't seem to be any notes missing on the jpg of Pinkie's House #394.


Is this a typo Sandra? Greg mentioned tune 494 and you referred to tune 394, have you looked at the wrong tune?
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #244 on: January 28, 2019, 08:34:02 AM »

I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House.
Comparing with the manuscript, there doesn't seem to be any notes missing on the jpg of Pinkie's House #394.


Is this a typo Sandra? Greg mentioned tune 494 and you referred to tune 394, have you looked at the wrong tune?

Sandra's right. The Pinkie House is one of the tunes I did. It's tune 394. The bottom corner was not completely in view in view. Maybe it's the way I'm viewing them. I'll check.

Edit. I checked and, whatever my issue was, I appear to have resolved it. The tune is notated as in the manuscript and I have not noted a problem.
Maybe I was thinking of St Bride's Bells, JBut.406. The last note of the first line (which is bar 2 of the B part), is missing from the scan, as far as I can see. I inserted an "a" (a "c" might have been a better choice, on reflection).
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 10:51:35 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #245 on: January 28, 2019, 02:18:59 PM »

The batch I've just finished was 80 - 139, my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #246 on: January 28, 2019, 04:24:01 PM »

The batch I've just finished was 80 - 139, my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
I've still some way to go yet, but who do you send them to, and how? Ta. Roger
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #247 on: January 28, 2019, 04:28:13 PM »

Email the saved abc file to Chris Partington.
He'll check it over and return the amended file to you.
I think then when all the files are in and corrected we all get a complete file of everyone's work.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #248 on: January 28, 2019, 04:51:23 PM »

Just a quick reminder...

Remember to back up your hard drive or wherever you are saving your Buttrey transcriptions. Just in case the worst happens and your hard drive fails or your computer catches fire, or...  :o
You don't want to have to repeat all that hard work for the sake of a minute or two saving a copy of your ABC files somewhere else.

Each time I finish doing a bit of transcribing, I save the ABC files to my Dropbox account. It only takes a couple of minutes and I know the files are safe in the Dropbox cloud.  :Ph
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #249 on: January 28, 2019, 05:21:18 PM »

When you've finished and checked your batch email it as an attachment to me.
It will be checked and a PDF made of it, then added to the growing file on the website.
If you would like your batch back separately just ask, I keep a copy, otherwise view it in one big file here:-
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/Buttrey/Buttrey%20info.html

nigelr

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #250 on: January 29, 2019, 08:28:08 AM »

Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.
Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?
Hello Nigeir - I've retaken the photo of tunes 441-445. It wins the biggest improvement of a retake so far. Hope you find this works better for you. - Sandy
Hi Sandra.  Many thanks for that - I'll revisit that page and have another look.  Nigel
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #251 on: January 29, 2019, 08:57:27 PM »

Maybe I was thinking of St Bride's Bells, JBut.406. The last note of the first line (which is bar 2 of the B part), is missing from the scan, as far as I can see. I inserted an "a" (a "c" might have been a better choice, on reflection).
Hi Greg - I've replaced the photo for tunes #404-407. My, your image was on a terrible angle. https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-373-458/
Just so folks know, we never ever assumed anyone would be transcribing these tunes on mass. By posting them, musicians could play right from the screen unlike the previous photos or microfiche, so that made them pretty happy. If they really liked a tune, and could see it well, they could transcribe it if they wanted.

The process of figuring out which tunes were on each photo and listing the tunes below was HUGE !!  So I didn't check each photo as I posted them to see everything was included. I just trimmed off Tracy's fingers as much as possible and misc background so the tunes would show as large as possible on the screen. (I also hate opening the ms. It's so delicate.)

I will look ahead and see which pages are badly cut. Please continue to let me know which pages you need retaken - Sandy
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #252 on: January 29, 2019, 08:59:21 PM »

The batch I've just finished was 80 - 139, my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
Wow - that's incredible !  Thank you for jumping in like this everyone !!
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #253 on: January 30, 2019, 12:26:10 AM »

Maybe I was thinking of St Bride's Bells, JBut.406. The last note of the first line (which is bar 2 of the B part), is missing from the scan, as far as I can see. I inserted an "a" (a "c" might have been a better choice, on reflection).
Hi Greg - I've replaced the photo for tunes #404-407. My, your image was on a terrible angle. https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-373-458/

Wey hey, I made the correct guess.
Thanks Sandra.
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Greg Smith
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #254 on: January 30, 2019, 12:33:40 AM »

I've started looking through the images on the website for ones with the right side cut off since this seems to be a common problem.

Most of the following were missing notes on the right hand side so have been replaced:
#153-157; #174-177
#187-190; #195-198; #203-207 The first 2 are just better photos
#211-215  Just a better photo
#305-310; #351-355  (Will be retaking #316-319; 351-355)
#432-436 (many, many missing notes)
#467-471; #475-478
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #255 on: January 30, 2019, 12:40:04 AM »

Answering a question that came up a while back, the Drum Major of the Drums of the Crown Forces (Canada) says:

The military fifes were keyed in Bb or C.

But they could only play music written in D or G.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #256 on: January 30, 2019, 01:03:44 AM »

Ah. In melodeon terms, I think that is much like saying that I have melodeons in D/G and C/F but I can only play the C/F in D/G.
In other words, the fifers were taught to read music as if they were playing a D fife, and to use the corresponding fingering,  but applied that to Bb and C instruments.

The power of diatonic instruments is apparent again.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 01:08:02 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #257 on: January 30, 2019, 05:16:19 AM »

Ah. In melodeon terms, I think that is much like saying that I have melodeons in D/G and C/F but
I can only play the C/F in D/G. In other words, the fifers were taught to read music as if they were
playing a D fife, and to use the corresponding fingering,  but applied that to Bb and C instruments.

The power of diatonic instruments is apparent again.

Let me make sure that I've got this right. If I play one of these tunes, scored in (say D) on my G/D
concertina, I'm playing in D (obviously), but one of these 19thC fifers, from the same music would
actually be playing two or four semitones lower, depending on whether it's a C or Bb fife? In other
words, I couldn't just 'play along' with the fifer?

Roger
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #258 on: January 30, 2019, 08:58:55 AM »

Let me make sure that I've got this right. If I play one of these tunes, scored in (say D) on my G/D
concertina, I'm playing in D (obviously), but one of these 19thC fifers, from the same music would
actually be playing two or four semitones lower, depending on whether it's a C or Bb fife?
Correct.

Quote
In other words, I couldn't just 'play along' with the fifer?

Also correct, depending on the particular instrument the fifer was playing.

If the fifer was playing a D fife, it would be at concert pitch, i.e. non-transposing, so you could indeed play along with that on your G/D anglo, or any other of your instruments which sounded the same note as was being read.

But if the fifer was playing a C fife the music would sound a tone lower. A tune written in G would come out sounding in F; a tune written in D would come out sounding in C. So you couldn't play along with that without adjusting the key in which you were playing in.

Like clarinettists and saxophonists, fifers always read and play exactly the same fingering regardless of the size/pitch of their instruments. It means that they don't have to learn new fingerings for each key they play in.  For example, if you see a written G, you always finger that with the three fingers of your left hand*. The written music is adjusted so that the sound always comes out at the correct pitch.

Sometimes people get confused by the two different conventions of naming the pitch of the instruments.
Relatively 'simple' instruments such as fifes and whistles are named according to the lowest note they can play with all finger holes closed. So the lowest note on a D whistle and fife is actually a D. On a C whistle/fife it is actually a C, and so on.

However, as wind instruments became more complex with mechanical keywork to extend the range downwards, that description no longer worked. The convention adopted, and in universal use for orchestral instruments, is "if I play a written/fingered C on my instrument, the actual real pitch of the note which sounds will be the named 'key' of my instrument".
So - a clarinet in Bb reads and fingers a written C but it sounds Bb;
a clarinet in A reads and fingers a written C but it sounds A;
a saxophone in Eb (e.g alto, baritone, etc.) reads and fingers a written C but it sounds Eb, and so on.


* it's slightly different for clarinets which don't overblow in octaves, so there are several possible fingerings for G depending on which octave you are playing in. But those fingerings are always the same regardless of the size and pitch of the clarinet concerned. 
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #259 on: January 30, 2019, 09:53:31 AM »


Let me make sure that I've got this right. If I play one of these tunes, scored in (say D) on my G/D
concertina, I'm playing in D (obviously), but one of these 19thC fifers, from the same music would
actually be playing two or four semitones lower, depending on whether it's a C or Bb fife? In other
words, I couldn't just 'play along' with the fifer?

Roger

That's what I understand the Drum Major to be saying (I have been known to get stuff wrong, but I think I have this right.).
Further allowance would need to be made for the variation in standard pitch over time, but that wouldn't affect musicians of the day..

So, if a fifer picks up a C fife and plays a tune scored in D, it will come out in C.
If he plays a tune in G, it will come out in F.
Similarly, a Bb fife will put D and G into Bb and Eb, respectively.
Presumably, these pitches matched the other instruments they played along with in their military band.

But, Aird's Airs are described as being for the fife, violin or German flute, playing in military bands. Did fifers have D fifes for playing in "civilian" dance bands orchestras or, did they only ever play with other military musicians? Did the other users of the scores play with transposing instruments? Did the violin players tune their instruments down a tone, or two to use this music?

One thing that has been puzzling me a bit is that the vast majority of Buttrey's and Aird's tunes are in D or G whereas, other publications tend to have a variety. Caledonian Country Dances, for instance, has tunes in flat and sharp keys, but seems to favour the flat keys.

[Edit: I cross posted with Steve, who is much better at providing answers than I am, but I have let this post stand because the questions raised intrigue me. What were things really like, for musicians of the day?] 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:00:39 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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