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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 31628 times)

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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #260 on: January 30, 2019, 10:08:03 AM »

One thing that has been puzzling me a bit is that the vast majority of Buttrey's and Aird's tunes are
in D or G whereas, other publications tend to have a variety. Caledonian Country Dances, for instance,
has tunes in flat and sharp keys, but seems to favour the flat keys.

Clearly, John Buttrey was blessed with extreme foresight and realised that 200 years down the road,
Morris musicians would all be using D/G melodeons...

Roger
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:36:42 AM by Roger Hare »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #261 on: January 30, 2019, 11:35:42 AM »


So, if a fifer picks up a C fife and plays a tune scored in D, it will come out in C.
If he plays a tune in G, it will come out in F.
Similarly, a Bb fife will put D and G into Bb and Eb, respectively.
Presumably, these pitches matched the other instruments they played along with in their military band.

Yes - a fife in C or Bb would be well-suited to playing along with military bands where the instruments would have been pitched in flat keys too.
But don't forget that a fife in D is also capable of playing in flat keys too, as it is more or less fully chromatic. It's just that the fingering gets a little more awkard as you go further away from the particular home key of the fife.

Quote
But, Aird's Airs are described as being for the fife, violin or German flute, playing in military bands. Did fifers have D fifes for playing in "civilian" dance bands orchestras or, did they only ever play with other military musicians? Did the other users of the scores play with transposing instruments? Did the violin players tune their instruments down a tone, or two to use this music?
The violin players did not retune their instruments to suit the fife. The fife players would have probably used a D fife in this situation, or else picked up their 'concert pitch' flute. A fife in D can read and play from a violin or flute or oboe part just as written; no need to transpose. Also, I suspect (but don't know for sure) that many fife players would have had more than one instrument anyway, so would have had fifes in D and C as standard practice. It's like most orchestral clarinettists who always carry around a pair of clarinets, one in Bb and the other in A. The written music is transposed accordingly and specifies which clarinet the player must use.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #262 on: January 30, 2019, 12:37:20 PM »

I've just had a QI moment. Foraging around the internet I came across this:

"Each company in an infantry regiment was assigned two fifers and two drummers. When the battalion (5 companies) or regiment (10 companies) was formed up on parade or for movement en masse, these musicians would be detached from the companies to form a "band". This is how the term band first came to refer to a group of musicians"

I never knew that.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #263 on: January 30, 2019, 12:49:07 PM »

No me neither.
I seem to be learning a lot from all this  (:)
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #264 on: January 30, 2019, 04:06:27 PM »

Here's one for the committee. What key is this in, if any? One sharp, and sounds centred to G to me, but Nigel has gone for Dmix, and he's got all his others spot on. It is however a gapped scale, with either the 3rd or the 7th missing (depending on whether you go for G or D).  It doesn't matter really much, but as a discussion it may be amusing.

X:458
T:Wish the Cat from Hunder the Tabal. JBut.458
T:Huish the Cat from Under the Table. JBut.458
T:Jackson's Humours of Panteen. JBut.458
Z:Village Music Project 2019 Nigel Rainer
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com
N:MS states key as G major but tonality implies D mixolydian - NR
N:I disagree, I think centre is G, but it's a hexatonic gapped scale of some sort - CGP
L:1/8
Q:3/8=100
K:Dmix
DED G2B|AGE G2E|DED G2B|AGE E2D|
DED G2B|AGE GAB|c2A B2G|AGE E2D:|
|:d2B c2A|BAG AGE|d2B c2A|AGE E2D|
d2B c2A|BAG AGE|GAB c2A|AGE E2D:|

Rob Lands

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #265 on: January 30, 2019, 04:40:32 PM »

Starts and finishes on D as written, the missing F/F# gives room for doubt. If F Dorian, F# Mixolodyian.
"Take the final note of the melody to be its tonic" "examine the 2nd 3rd 6th and 7th notes to arrive at the mode" quoting some old geezer with a house named after him.
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Rob Lands

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #266 on: January 30, 2019, 04:51:34 PM »

Having tried it on a CF I would definitley like playing it in "C" but I not with thirds in the chords!
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Anahata

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #267 on: January 30, 2019, 06:02:40 PM »

I hear this as a tune in G.
It's one of those rare examples where "Take the final note of the melody to be its tonic" does not work. It feels
unfinished to me.
I think my reason is that underlying chords all seem to be D and G. Dmix would have some C or A minor chords, and there isn't much room for them in that tune.
I can't imagine an F natural in that. It's too 'major' for me, even without that third in it.

Having said that, I wouldn't call it wrong if someone wrote Dmix in the ABC, because it produces a correct key signature and the tune ends on a D. I might well have put D mix myself. But some Mixolydian tunes feel much more "at home" on their last note than this one does.

Tonally, it reminds me of The Blarney Pilgrim.

I suppose this is also an example of the futility of pigeonholing tunes into categories. This one really doesn't fit.
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #268 on: January 30, 2019, 06:58:57 PM »

Starts and finishes on D as written, the missing F/F# gives room for doubt. If F Dorian, F# Mixolodyian.
"Take the final note of the melody to be its tonic" "examine the 2nd 3rd 6th and 7th notes to arrive at the mode" quoting some old geezer with a house named after him.

Usually, not always. To what note does it gravitate is what counts. Internet searching doesn't help, so many different versions, and so many opinions as to scale.

Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #269 on: January 30, 2019, 08:03:51 PM »

We have always wondered how many people wrote in this ms. Since the depiction of the ships at the Battle of the Niles and the Battle of St. Kitts were before John Buttrey's time and his regiment never went there, there is the assumption that his regiment was given the ms when the regiment was created in 1797. There are also several changes in the drawing the notes and titles. (Titles seem to be added in large chunks with different hands.) If you look at the 700 tunes you will see several changes in script, which could be just a change of pen?

Would love to know your interpretations of any changes in the script throughout ms. You have probably read more old music than anyone, so maybe things come to mind?

The second end of the ms with the unnumbered tunes is assumed to have been created last. Do you recognize these tunes as being later tunes ?

Do you see anything that could be of interest to date the various parts of the book ?
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #270 on: January 30, 2019, 08:10:25 PM »

"Each company in an infantry regiment was assigned two fifers and two drummers. When the battalion (5 companies) or regiment (10 companies) was formed up on parade or for movement en masse, these musicians would be detached from the companies to form a "band". This is how the term band first came to refer to a group of musicians"
And all fifers and drummers were called "drummers". John Buttrey was listed as a "drummer" but we assume he was a fife player because of the ms.
If you want to know more about John Buttrey's history, go here:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca//about/history/
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #271 on: January 30, 2019, 08:19:59 PM »

We have always wondered how many people wrote in this ms. Since the depiction of the ships at the Battle of the Niles and the Battle of St. Kitts were before John Buttrey's time and his regiment never went there, there is the assumption that his regiment was given the ms when the regiment was created in 1797. There are also several changes in the drawing the notes and titles. (Titles seem to be added in large chunks with different hands.) If you look at the 700 tunes you will see several changes in script, which could be just a change of pen?

Would love to know your interpretations of any changes in the script throughout ms. You have probably read more old music than anyone, so maybe things come to mind?

The second end of the ms with the unnumbered tunes is assumed to have been created last. Do you recognize these tunes as being later tunes ?

Do you see anything that could be of interest to date the various parts of the book ?

I'm a bit snowed under with just checking the tunes at the present, but yes, I've seen a lot of mss and know what to look for, so I'll get around to it. Circumstantially it seems you're on the right track.

Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #272 on: January 30, 2019, 10:44:50 PM »

I'm not really qualified to comment on this but to be honest D mix doesn't seem right at all to me, I love mixolydian tunes but this isn't one. The tonality (as I understand it) isn't quite right for a mix tune, it's not (slightly) minor enough to qualify. That said, what do I know?
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #273 on: January 30, 2019, 11:01:40 PM »

I'm a bit snowed under with just checking the tunes at the present, but yes, I've seen a lot of mss and know what to look for, so I'll get around to it. Circumstantially it seems you're on the right track.
Thank you so much. That would be great.  (:)
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #274 on: January 30, 2019, 11:11:37 PM »

Steve Dumpleton - I believe somewhere you said you were going to work on 626-660 next. I hope you didn't try to use #626-630. It was squished from top to bottom and elongated sideways. No idea how a photo got taken like that. It has now been replaced.

Also #653-657 is now flatter and has an extra note on the right hand side.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #275 on: January 30, 2019, 11:27:33 PM »

Starts and finishes on D as written,....


Seems to finish on an E to me. The D quaver is the lead in note to the next time through.
It doesn't jump out as being in Eaeo though.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #276 on: January 30, 2019, 11:57:04 PM »

I hope you didn't try to use #626-630. It was squished from top to bottom and elongated sideways. No idea how a photo got taken like that. It has now been replaced.
Thanks, but I un-squished it using Photoshop and managed to read it perfectly well.  (:)
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #277 on: January 31, 2019, 12:29:26 AM »

The photos for these tunes have been replaced. Again, most now include a little more ms on the right hand side although some are just a lot clearer:

#491-495
#500-503
#508-512 clearer
#601-606
#626-630 was squished
#653-657
#684-685 clearer
#756-761 clearer
#762-765 clearer
#776-780 flatter, more notes

8 images replaced between #781 and last numbered tune #961.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 09:41:15 PM by Sandra Cameron »
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #278 on: January 31, 2019, 12:33:59 AM »

my new batch is 735 - 774 so we're getting well into it!  :o 8)
Hope you haven't started these tunes. The new images will be much easier to read:
#756-761 clearer
#762-765 clearer
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #279 on: January 31, 2019, 09:41:48 AM »

I've been asked by several folk how "finished" their batches need to be in terms of corrections to errors in the ms. It's worth putting here what I've sent to them, "so's you know".

Really, you don't need to worry about it. If you are not practiced in it, it can take a while before you see solutions - and sometimes there aren't any! It is entirely sufficient , and what most will do, to just record what's there, or what you think is there, warts an' all, and pass it to me. It is my role to make editorial decisions to suit the VMP way of arriving at a product, and I'll often overrule what you do anyway, if I see a better solution! As long as you've got the tunes and titles down as far as you can, send it to me and I will do the rest.

That said of course, if you can fix it yourself it will speed up my job.
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