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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 24787 times)

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Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #380 on: February 23, 2019, 02:46:43 AM »

Hi. No all of the tunes are intended to be played by the fife alone. The bugle (wiithout keys) had a limited number of notes it could play. While the keyed bugle came into use around 1812, the Buttrey manuscript was written several years prior to that. Hope that helps
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #381 on: February 23, 2019, 09:20:15 AM »

Hi. No all of the tunes are intended to be played by the fife alone....

OK, thanks.
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Greg Smith
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #382 on: February 23, 2019, 06:27:06 PM »

Tune # 957 "My Mother Aye Glowering Oer Me" has written between the staves "pub by John Buttrey"  Ken Purvis has determined that this tune was in Volume 1 of Aird (1782) so does anyone have any idea what the "pub by" means?  It's the only such note in the ms.

https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-775-961/
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #383 on: February 24, 2019, 02:14:37 PM »

Maybe it relates to the edit it is next to. I can't think of a word to fit, yet.
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #384 on: February 24, 2019, 02:23:56 PM »

'Published by John Buttrey' ??
That's what immediately came to my mind.
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #385 on: February 24, 2019, 02:32:38 PM »

'Published by John Buttrey' ??
That's what immediately came to my mind.
Q

yes, but I can't think why that would be apt
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #386 on: February 24, 2019, 03:58:53 PM »

Perhaps he was signifying this particular song was the one he's selected for publishing?
We seem to think this manuscript was his work book, some tunes noted from others, some not quite right for further work etc. so why not copy this particular song out onto another piece of paper and submit it for publishing.
Perhaps!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #387 on: March 01, 2019, 02:10:35 PM »

I've just transcribed a tune with the title "A Short Troop", if fourty bars is a short one I'd hate to find a long 'un!

X:741
T:Short Troop. JBut.741, A
M:3/8
L:1/8
Q:1/8=140
K:G
|:d/c/|Bde|e2 c/A/|G/F/E/D/E/F/|G2 G|FAc|c/B/A/G/B/c/|def|g2:|
|:D|GBd|gdB|eee|e2e|dBG|FAc/B/|AAA|A2D|
GBG|EcA|FdF|Ged|dgd|eFA|GGG|G2:|
|:D|GGG|G2 B/G/|AAA|A2c|BGd|gec|ddd|d2:|
|:d|e/c/B/A/G/F/|GBd|EEE|E2 D/C/|B,DG|FAF|GGG|G2:|
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #388 on: March 02, 2019, 05:47:57 AM »

I'm posting below a fairly lengthy extract from a message I had from the secretary of the Corps of Drums Society.
The book referred to is Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife which I have just finished transcribing and which
is now with CP for proof-reading and cleaning-up. In that sense, the extract is not immediately relevant to the
Buttrey project, but it's interesting in a context where it has been suggested that John Buttrey may have learned
some of his tunes from this tutor?

Quote
...As a society we are primarily concerned with the drum and flute Corps of Drums, which still survives (just) in English
and Welsh infantry battalions.  The instrumentation is based on the Army reforms of the 1860's when keys were added
to the fife,  making it a simple system flute, and the drums were reduced in size. This being so, the Drums and Fifes of
the 18th century is really before our period, but some of the traditions and tunes have survived.  It has always intrigued
me that there were separate English and "Scotch" duties.  Scots regiments were still issued with fifes/flutes into the late
19th century even though they were also allowed to have a limited number of pipes. 

Some of the tunes in the book are still in use.  The English "Reveilly" is also known as The Mother and Three Camps
(no-one knows why!) and is still played by Corps of Drums when Beating Reveille, which still happens very rarely.  The
same basic tune is also played faster as something called The Point of War (again no-one knows why) as a salute when
the Colour(s) are marched on or off parade and the Guard presents arms. This used to happen for Guard mounts and
dismounts at St. James's  Palace but it is now so rare for a Corps of Drums to be available for this duty that I haven't
heard it for years.  A version of the English Grenadiers March is played every year by the massed Bands at HM's Birthday
Parade (Trooping the Colour).  The Rogues March is still played occasionally.  The first part of Scipio is still used as a
General Salute, while the Coldstream or 2nd Regt of Guards March is still the Slow March of the Coldstream Guards
... 

An interesting insight into the world in which JB operated?

The italicised sentence is telling (my italics) - 200 years down the road, and this stuff is still current...

The tunes referred to are, of course, the versions in Thompson, though they may be present in Buttrey also?

Roger.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 06:14:19 AM by Roger Hare »
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Music Packages (ABC/PDF/MIDI)    Thompson's Compleat Tutor for Fife (c.1765)

Julian S

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #389 on: March 03, 2019, 02:29:10 PM »

I might be getting carried away.
Whilst discussing the Buttrey ms with a friendly military historian and reenactor, I scanned through his copy of 'Songs and Music of the Redcoats' by Lewis Winstock and came upon a reference to the John Greenwood ms, dating from 1780 ish now in the archives of the New York Historical Society.
Greenwood was a fife major in the American War of Independence (on the winning side!) and acquired a tune book from a redcoat fifer. To quote Winstock 'the book is particularly interesting because it must be a true guide to what the band played and what the soldiers danced to...many of the tunes are completely unmilitary - minuets, hornpipes and the like...
And guess what, the Greenwood ms is available online through the NYHS digital archive - I have no idea whether this is a well known ms, and haven't had chance to do more than scan through the thirty or so tunes (I will post a link later in case of interest )
Winstock also refers to two other ms in the National Army Museum collection, Russell dating from 1812, and Newman from the 1850s, and one further in the Sutro Library San Francisco (wonder how it got there !) which belonged to a bandmaster in the Inniskilling Dragoons, and was compiled in 1797 .

Investigations continue...

J

Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #390 on: March 03, 2019, 03:02:17 PM »

Hi Julian, as far as I'm concerned you're not getting carried away, merely adding to the subject matter. I find it really interesting to learn the background to the manuscripts.
Also, could we be finding similar manuscripts to notate?

With respect to the last manuscript in San Francisco: Looking at the origins of the bandmaster and where he finished up, perhaps we're into Irish famine/California Goldrush era?
Yes a wild set of assumptions, but....
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #391 on: March 03, 2019, 05:55:16 PM »

The manuscripts you refer to are already listed on my page here http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/Tune_Manuscripts_List, but if you come across any more, or more information on any of them, then it's a Wiki, you can either join on your own account or report them to me.

Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #392 on: March 03, 2019, 06:34:19 PM »

Roger, interesting response from the Corps of Drums Society. BTW the reference to The Point of War is because the Mother and Three Camps was also used as a signal to "fix bayonets" before a charge. As the pace of the charge increased, so did the beating.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #393 on: March 04, 2019, 10:31:05 AM »

Roger, interesting response from the Corps of Drums Society. BTW the reference to The Point of War is because the Mother and Three Camps was also used as a signal to "fix bayonets" before a charge. As the pace of the charge increased, so did the beating.

Thank you. I'll pass that on.

Roger
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #394 on: March 04, 2019, 10:47:28 AM »

Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #395 on: March 04, 2019, 11:04:21 AM »

Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.

Same here
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Julian S

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #396 on: March 04, 2019, 12:24:17 PM »

Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.

Same here

I don't know what has gone wrong - when I found it I was able to scroll through to see all the pages. I've just tried clicking on 'pages' and that enabled me to look at each individually.

J
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 12:27:00 PM by Julian S »
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #397 on: March 04, 2019, 03:56:58 PM »

Ps link to Greenwood http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

I'm unable to see any images when I try and look at this link - all I see is a two-page opening of blank pages.
Any ideas?

Ta. Roger.

Same here

I don't know what has gone wrong - when I found it I was able to scroll through to see all the pages. I've just tried clicking on 'pages' and that enabled me to look at each individually.

J
Me too. The link from my page worked yesterday and doesn't now. I've changed it to http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/ (go to the search box and ask for "Music Book"). Yesterday it took forever to load the pages, so maybe they'll fix it.

ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #398 on: March 04, 2019, 04:42:18 PM »

Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #399 on: March 04, 2019, 05:43:47 PM »

I don't know what has gone wrong - when I found it I was able to scroll through to see all
the pages. I've just tried clicking on 'pages' and that enabled me to look at each individually.

I tried 'pages' too, and simply got a black page with no content. Just found an electronic
mail address for the webmaster - message sent...

Edit 3 days later: Still can't scroll through the book proper. I tried 'pages' again, and
this time I could see the images - thumbnails only, though - too small to be able to read
(or transcribe) properly. No response from NYHS which is a pity, the list of tunes looks
interesting but the images are too small to use for (reliable?) transcription...
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 05:54:54 AM by Roger Hare »
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