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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 29834 times)

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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2018, 03:09:26 PM »

I'm sure that one of our members will be very disappointed that this one is missing:

X:95
T:Mr Quinton’s Side Beating Tune. JBut.95 *missing*
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
M:4/4
L:1/8
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk.2018
K:C

 ;)
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2018, 04:38:56 PM »

Oh no  :'(
I just *know* it would have been a belter  :|||:
Life's not fair  :(
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2018, 05:03:23 PM »

You are clearly the chosen one to write a replacement tune for that title. Make it a new year's resolution. And it had better be a belter, now you've promised it.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2018, 05:47:27 PM »

I might be deemed 'The Chosen One' but we all know what happened to him recently  ::)
Having never written a tune, I could have it as a New Year's Resolution.
I reserve the right to specify which year ........... ;D
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2018, 12:47:19 PM »

I've just completed the first actual tune in my batch (80-139) as the first 27 tunes are missing, but still needed documenting in the file. This very first tune threw up a few issues that may be of interest to the new VMP coders. In addition to the pictures from the manuscript the website lists a description of each tune and in some cases a modern transcription. So for my first one it shows:

108 The Cuckows Nest Hornpipe 2/4 G  Carroll - K.Purvis. Ignore the names as there's no transciption but perhaps they have written harmony lines in another section. The key is shown as G when it is clearly marked with two sharps, ends on a D and sounds completely wrong in G. Treat any information given with a degree of caution!

It took me a while to get my eye in on this one as there are many shadow markings on the page and the image is tilted so I kept losing which bar I was on when changing from magnified back down to normal size to navigate the page. The tune has three 8 bar sections, each has a pick-up and is repeated, the last bar of each section was full, leaving no room for the repeat pickup to be played. Chris may decide I've done the wrong thing here and change it but rather than mark the errors and make a note in the header N: field, I marked and shortened the last bars and explained why in the N: field. I also offered an alternative title for the tune because of the strange spelling. Here's a copy of the file and I've attached a pic of the tune.

Code: [Select]
X:108
T:Cuckows Nest Hornpipe. JBut.108, The
T:Cuckoo's Nest Hornpipe aka. JBut.108, The
S:https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/
N:Last bar of each section too full to accommodate
N:the pick-up when repeated so last note shortened
M:2/4
L:1/16
Q:1/4=70
Z:vmp.Peter Dunk.2018
K:D
AG|FEFD dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEF|G2E2E2 AG|
FEFD dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEF|F2D2"N.B"D2:|
|:A2|f3f dfef|c2A2A2B2|=cBcB cedc|BAGF G2BA|
FEFE dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEF|F2D2"N.B"D2:|
|:FG|AFDF AFDF|AGFE D2EF|GECE GECE|GFED C2AG|
FEFD dfed|cAGF GBAG|GFED CDEG|F2D2"N.B"D2:|
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2018, 01:13:05 PM »

Some of the anomolies Pete is describing appear in my selection, along with some others. I made alterations where they seemed appropriate and noted them in the headers.

So far as viewing the page goes, I found it easier to save the image as a jpg and put it into an editor so I could manipulate it and enhance the visibility.

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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2018, 01:35:14 PM »

Greg, I highlighted (selected) the entire section of the webpage I wanted, copied it to the clipboard, pasted it into Word which turned it into 12 pages, then saved as a
PDF. Transferred the PDF to my iPad which is on a desk mount to one side of my PC monitor and view it with Acrobat. Very easy to zoom in, draw lines, make comments, add bar numbers etc.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2018, 01:35:41 PM »

It took me a while to get my eye in on this one as there are many shadow markings on the page and the image is tilted so I kept losing which bar I was on when changing from magnified back down to normal size to navigate the page.

Like Greg says, have you considered throwing the source image into an image editor and correcting via skew/shear? And perhaps adjusting the colour levels? The lightest and darkest part of the image are decently far from black and white, so you can stretch the colours it uses out to fill that space without throwing anything away. Plus, having it in an editor would also let you add any quick annotations eg bar numbers that might make navigation a little easier.

A quick play with gimp's shear tool, and playing with the levels later...

For the purpose of reading the notes off of it, I'd find this a fair bit easier to work from. Could probably even go one better and use the perspective tool to correct the bar lines pinching in on the left side, but I'd probably draw over the bar lines and repeats before worrying about that. But, your experience may vary, etc, and obviously when you're done, compare with the original.

This is a really neat project by the way, I hope it goes well!
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2018, 02:00:35 PM »

Thanks for the feedback.
I'm viewing the manuscript on my iPad and transcribing it using abcexplorer on my pc. Using the iPad means I can pinch in ( zoom ) into a closer view of the ms.
It's my first ever attempt at notating tunes from an old manuscript and as Pete says it's difficult trying to differentiate between ghost images of other pages and your current tune dots possibly in a photograph with tilted staves and lens-curved edges. Initially I was confused finding one tune ending then another starting on the same lines, but presumably paper was much sought after so you used all you had. I too find I tune in, but after a while need to go away and come back a-fresh.

I'm working from the original ms, and do check the titles accompanying the true image. Tune 189 has in the typed notes 'Prince Lonarians March'. I've put this down as a title and in the Z: field noted I can't quite read it as such on the ms.
Does this mean the person making those typed notes could read it better when reading the actual manuscript, or are they too guessing?
Having no expreience of this, I'll let Chris decide.
Also a couple of tunes don't seem to flow. I have transcribed to the best of my ability and checked them, as best as I can.
I am unsure of the 'proper' way to do this, inasmuch as do you leave the tune as seen, or attempt to make it playable?
If you tweak it to sound right, then surely it's not the tune in it's original state?
Again I'm trying to be accurate as to what I see and let those with real musical expertise decide.

I've pinged my first 5 tunes off to Chris to make sure I'm on roughly the right track. Fingers crossed!
All things considered, I am enjoying the task immensely!
cheers
Q



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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2018, 05:18:44 PM »

...The tune has three 8 bar sections, each has a pick-up and is repeated, the last bar of each section was full, leaving no room for the repeat pickup to be played. Chris may decide I've done the wrong thing here and change it but rather than mark the errors and make a note in the header N: field, I marked and shortened the last bars and explained why in the N: field. I also offered an alternative title for the tune because of the strange spelling.

I'm doing exactly the same! John Buttrey (JB) was clearly none too good at making the final bar note lengths agree with the initial pick up bars. I make whatever changes I need (sometimes by introducing 1st and 2nd time bars if required) but always explaining what has been done, and why, in the N: fields.
Incidentally, if there is a lot of information to go in the N: field, I divide it between multiple N: field lines, in order to keep the text lines from disappearing off the RH side. Generally I try to keep a single N: text line to less than 72 characters.

Another repeat marking which I have encountered a couple of times is a 'Da Capo' (D.C.) marking at the very end of the tune. Sometimes this is written in his highly decorative script, but not always. It is also shown as a repeat mark but with four dots, not the usual two. Implicit in this instruction is to go right back to the start of the A-music and then finish the tune at the end of the A-music. Conventionally you would expect a 'FINE' marking at that point, but JB has failed to put them in, taking the FINE to be 'understood'.

Here's an example from one of my transcriptions with the D.C. and FINE coding shown in colour:

X:50
T:Swift Revaley. JBut.050, The
Z:Village Music Project 2018 Steve Dumpleton
N:Bars 10 and 18: crotchets in MS changed to dotted crotchets in transcription
N:to preserve rhythmic integrity with pick-up notes on repeats.
M:2/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
|:D|G>ABc|d>efd|g2 g2|f3 d|ee (3(efg)|
dd (3(def)|cc (3(cde)|BB (3(Bcd)|(3(ABc) AF|G3!fine!y:|
|:B/c/|dBGB|AF D(B/c/)|d>BGB|A3 (B/c/)|
d>BGB|AF D(B/c/)|d>BGB|A3!D.C.!y:|


The 'y' code (in green) is a useful bit of the ABC 2.1 standard. It enables a non-rhythmic space to be inserted in the music. In this case, it shifts the D.C. and FINE markings slightly to the left, so that the characters do not appear over the RH end bar-lines, which they otherwise would.

....have you considered throwing the source image into an image editor and correcting via skew/shear? And perhaps adjusting the colour levels? The lightest and darkest part of the image are decently far from black and white, so you can stretch the colours it uses out to fill that space without throwing anything away. Plus, having it in an editor would also let you add any quick annotations eg bar numbers that might make navigation a little easier.

A quick play with gimp's shear tool, and playing with the levels later...
...
For the purpose of reading the notes off of it, I'd find this a fair bit easier to work from. Could probably even go one better and use the perspective tool to correct the bar lines pinching in on the left side, but I'd probably draw over the bar lines and repeats before worrying about that. But, your experience may vary, etc, and obviously when you're done, compare with the original.

Yes - I can see this is possible and I could do similar in Photoshop if I really felt the need. But to be honest, for me it's not worth the bother. The facsimile MS is clear enough once you get accustomed to it. My time is better spent doing the transcriptions rather than playing around with image editing.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2018, 05:36:29 PM »

All good. One to watch out for, though I don't know if Buttrey does it, is the semi-circle with a dot under it, the sign that nowadays is a fermata, or hold. It was commonly also used to signify FINE, and in those cases should be notated as !fine! and needs no comment.

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2018, 05:37:15 PM »

...Also a couple of tunes don't seem to flow. I have transcribed to the best of my ability and checked them, as best as I can.
I am unsure of the 'proper' way to do this, inasmuch as do you leave the tune as seen, or attempt to make it playable?
If you tweak it to sound right, then surely it's not the tune in it's original state?
Again I'm trying to be accurate as to what I see and let those with real musical expertise decide.

There is definitely a balance to be struck with being accurate and honouring the MS, and sometimes needing to do some 'tweaking' to make the tune sound right. The latter is imprtant too, and just as a good language translator needs to make the translation idiomatically sensible, so the music transcriber needs to sometimes exercise some careful judgement to determine what was intended, rather than slavishly adhering only to what is written on the page. So long as the transcriber records what has been done (i.e. in ABC by using the N: fields to document any departures from the original) then that is rightfully OK. After all, we and the wider world already have the exact copy of the original MS, warts and all, so there is no point in perpetuating any errors when it is clear that those errors exist and we are able to correct them.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2018, 05:41:39 PM »

All good. One to watch out for, though I don't know if Buttrey does it, is the semi-circle with a dot under it, the sign that nowadays is a fermata, or hold. It was commonly also used to signify FINE, and in those cases should be notated as !fine! and needs no comment.
Thanks Chris!
Yes - I have come across the fermata in the MS, just once so far. But in the example I've found, I think it really means a held note, not a FINE marking. So for now, I've coded it as !fermata! rather than !fine!. Easily changed though...
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2018, 05:47:15 PM »

Thanks Steve. My musical knowledge is being tested here if not straightforward in ms, but that's not necessarily bad!
You've gotta learn.....
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2018, 06:18:21 PM »

Yes - I have come across the fermata in the MS, just once so far. But in the example I've found, I think it really means a held note, not a FINE marking. So for now, I've coded it as !fermata! rather than !fine!. Easily changed though...

From an old ABC standard, still working now and always will - H (for hold) will get you a fermata, T gets you a trill and L an accent mark.

I've seen lots of repeat marks with four dots instead of two over the years, and have assumed them to simply be an old fashioned way of writing them. I haven't come across one in this manuscript but another common  mark to watch out for is a reversed quaver rest, like a 7 backwards, that denotes a crotchet rest!  :o

Edited to add: I've come across a lot of musicians who refer to the fermata as an 'eyebrow'  :|glug
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 06:20:43 PM by Pete Dunk »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2018, 06:56:53 PM »

Watch out for this one. I've found two tunes in the first few where the website description of the tune describes them as 2/2 and 4/4 respectively on the manuscript they have cut time C| and common time C marks. C| and C are still in common usage and I see no reason to 'correct' anything that is perfectly legitimate in the first place. It's a rough old world out there kiddies, stay safe!  >:E
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2018, 08:22:23 PM »

Repeat marks with extra dots usually mean an extra repeat for each set of dots, don't they?.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2018, 10:17:08 PM »

Not in any music I've seen. My money's on 4 dots = old fashioned, 2 dots = modern.

Edited to add: Wikipedia says 4 dots are used in shape note singing.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 10:19:10 PM by Anahata »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2018, 10:36:02 PM »

Can't remember where I saw that. Somewhere on line in some source of music information, I think. Came from a source other than me, though (I think  (:) ). Maybe I dreamed it. I think I also dreamed that it worked with the old (single floppy disc) version of  Sibelious I started out with.

[Edit: I would suggest that this idea is probably not worth pursuing.]
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 11:03:44 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2018, 10:52:16 PM »

Sibelious.

Oh b*gger, do I really have to be the one to ask if Sibelius really had a floppy disk?
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