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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 30059 times)

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2019, 09:18:28 AM »

Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2019, 09:21:22 AM »

Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

It's worth a visit to see what's already going on.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buttreyfifemusic/posts/?ref=page_internal
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2019, 09:26:18 AM »

Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

It's worth a visit to see what's already going on.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buttreyfifemusic/posts/?ref=page_internal

Thanks Greg, but I am not a FB user and unlikely to be in the foreseable future. I don't even have a moblie phone.
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Anahata

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2019, 10:42:24 AM »

I'm not on Fb either, however the main Buttrey page is available to read for anyone. They seem quite excited about the attention it's getting here.

It also makes me wonder about other similar ms which are not widely known about (other military archives maybe ?)

And Happy New Year to all !
Some friends of ours say they have just acquired a manuscript book of tunes from Lincolnshire. Could become another VMP project. We''ll follow it up...
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2019, 10:45:24 AM »


It's worth a visit to see what's already going on.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/buttreyfifemusic/posts/?ref=page_internal

Thanks Greg, but I am not a FB user and unlikely to be in the foreseable future. I don't even have a moblie phone.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I don't have a smart phone either (but you don't need one).
anyone else, though, there are already a bunch of people doing stuff.


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Greg Smith
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2019, 11:41:23 AM »

I'm not on Fb either, however the main Buttrey page is available to read for anyone. They seem quite excited about the attention it's getting here.

It also makes me wonder about other similar ms which are not widely known about (other military archives maybe ?)

And Happy New Year to all !
Some friends of ours say they have just acquired a manuscript book of tunes from Lincolnshire. Could become another VMP project. We''ll follow it up...

PM sent.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2019, 06:23:51 PM »

Please note that the first three tunes I found that have previously been transcribed had errors in the modern transcription. I'll now use them as a (very) rough guide, but trust nothing, as some 'errors' appear to be an attempt to correct mistakes that aren't there or shoe-horn pickup notes into the ends of bars.  >:(
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2019, 06:57:12 PM »

Thanks for this comment Pete.
I have been wary of the modern transcriptions and the typed titles as I'm unsure of their origins or accuracy.
Some of my tunes have the title typed below the manuscript. Im not too sure how they arrived at some words, could it be they have seen the original MS and it's clearer 'in the flesh'? Perhaps they are guessing?
I'm trying to notate based on what I see in the MS and take it from there.
Cheers
Q
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2019, 08:05:54 PM »

Look at the Butterey FB page to know more about the existing transcriptions.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2019, 06:09:31 AM »

Please note that the first three tunes I found that have previously been transcribed had errors in the modern
transcription. I'll now use them as a (very) rough guide, but trust nothing, as some 'errors' appear to be an
attempt to correct mistakes that aren't there or shoe-horn pickup notes into the ends of bars.  >:(

I too have noticed 'errors' in the modern transcriptions and in the index. These seem to be largely to do with time
signatures - one mis-read (by me), for example; and one presented in the index as 'X' when in the manuscript it is
clearly 'Y'. Some 'errors' are not so clear (to me, at least). It's probable that there are two sources of 'errors'? 1) in
the modern transcriptions/index; 2) in the MS itself - genuine 'errors', and bits which are difficult to read?

I'll be concentrating on producing a first draft of all 'my' tunes, which will as faithfully as possible reproduce what I
am seeing in the MS - including bars with 'wrong' note counts(*), dodgy pick-ups between parts, etc. Only then will
I be going back to attempt to 'correct' the errors. This may involve 'correcting' time signatures (I think I saw a 2/4
in the MS, for what is 'obviously' a 3/4 tune), and also seems to involve some detective work (I've looked at 7 other
transcriptions of one tune already)...

I hope this is a 'sensible' way to approach matters - as a first-time transcriber, I'm a little unsure of the best strategy.

Whatever, it sems a slow process - so far I've done a basic transcription of 31 (out of 43) tunes. Is this slow, fast,
acceptable?

Roger
(*) I think I've seen one example of a wrong note-count being due to the fact that the 'extra' note is in fact a grace-note?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 10:22:48 AM by lachenal74693 »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2019, 07:15:10 AM »

Anahata: haven't checked the fb page yet but am wondering if we can download or copy them for the non fb users amongst us?
I am on fb but am an infrequent user and don't know my way round very well.
It seems that on the blog site, the updated images have already been loaded. I had previously downloaded the images for my set of tunes and now, on comparing them with the blog, the latter is much more legible than before. So hopefully no need to go to the FB site.  (:)
www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/blog

Please note that as a result of the re-photographing of some of the tunes and re-uploading them, there is now an omission:
The page showing tune Nos. 64 and 65 (also with the 2nd part of tune No.63) is now MISSING from the website.
Previously it was there and fortunately I made a copy of it before it went missing. See attached!
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2019, 10:38:22 AM »

Don't feel the need to absolutely resolve all inconsistencies, just do what you are able; I will make a final judgement anyway when I check them. The less I have to do the better of course. And as others have said, we are working from the originals not the modern transcriptions, which we should largely ignore.
Also don't worry about speed, it's taken 20 years to get 12,000 tunes into VMP. As long as you do a few tunes at a time it'll be OK. Though I know half of you will be much faster, regard half-term as an easily attainable target for a batch.

Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2019, 10:42:28 AM »

Whatever, it sems a slow process - so far I've done a basic transcription of 31 (out of 43) tunes. Is this slow, fast,
acceptable?

Roger
(*) I think I've seen one example of a wrong note-count being due to the fact that the 'extra' note is in fact a grace-note?

31 out of 43 tunes done already sounds like a cracking pace, for goodness sake don't feel pressured about speed, it's been sitting there since 1800 so another few weeks or months won't matter. Good idea to check transcriptions from other early manuscripts, make that VMP transcriptions where possible  ;) .

I too have picked up on the fact that there are overfull bars where it's possible that some of the notes might be grace notes badly written. The worst of these somehow always manage to to be in the extreme right hand margin of a left hand page where the paralax distortion is at its worst and the notes are crammed together get them onto the end of the stave. I tend to mark these and let Chris give them the once over if I can't think of anything sensible to suggest. This isn't because I'm too lazy to put the work into research but I have limited knowledge of the tunes and the idiosyncrasies of 17th, 18th and 19th century notation, Chris is a far better sleuth than I and he has a vast knowledge of tunes and collections.  ;D

It sounds like you are doing fine Roger, fret not!
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #113 on: January 04, 2019, 11:54:49 AM »

Thanks for the reassurance Chris, I appreciate being able to leave inconsistencies to those that are experienced here.
The last tune I notated seemed to have random note values. The last two notes of a bar having values of 3, then 1 which adds up correctly within the bar. More often than not the MS is giving the values randomly as 2 then 1 which doesn't add up in the bar.
Have altered them to 3 & 1 and 'NB'd" it in the transcription.

It seems a very cavalier attitude to the music in the 1800's, or perhaps some of these were tunes deemed '95% sorted' and tweaked finally by the composer when started to be incorporated in his repertoire?
Interesting stuff looking at these old originals......
cheers
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #114 on: January 04, 2019, 04:50:44 PM »

1) 31 out of 43 tunes done already sounds like a cracking pace, for goodness sake don't feel pressured about speed...

2) I too have picked up on the fact that there are overfull bars where it's possible that some of the notes might be grace
notes badly written....

3) It sounds like you are doing fine Roger, fret not!

1) Remember, I had a head start, as I had already transcribed about 6 tunes for personal use before all this
kicked-off in earnest. I was blown-away by the speed with which this project was actually got up and running,
so I thought 'Crikey, these guys don't hang about - better get a wiggle on.' Nice to know I can ease off a bit.

2) I think I'm going to make a set of my own transcriber's notes, listing the 'common faults', and what to do
about them. I'm enjoying this so much that I don't intend it to be the last time I do this...

3) Thank you kind sir...
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 05:05:45 AM by lachenal74693 »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2019, 05:34:13 PM »

I'm enjoying this so much that I don't intend it to be the last time I do this...

Ah, CMTS*, worse than MAD. You need to keep an eye on that mate, can turn nasty.  :o



*CTMS = Compulsive Music Transcription Syndrome

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2019, 05:44:43 PM »

I can understand CMTS!
I find I get into the zone and want to get to the end of the tube to find out what it sounds like.
I also recognise after a while I start to feel tired and make mistakes so then it's time to stop.
It is an enjoyable addiction!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Steve_freereeder

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2019, 07:41:18 PM »

It seems a very cavalier attitude to the music in the 1800's, or perhaps some of these were tunes deemed '95% sorted' and tweaked finally by the composer when started to be incorporated in his repertoire?
Interesting stuff looking at these old originals......

Indeed interesting! I always love looking at the old manuscripts. A couple of points worth remembering:

1. Often the compilers of the manuscripts were not completely fluent in music theory and 'grammar', so there will often be minor errors. For example, common errors are incorrect note lengths at the ends of the lines, and hence not agreeing rhythmically with pick-up notes. It doesn't matter too much, either then or now, as the musical meaning is nearly always obvious, and in any case the compilers were not trying to pass Grade 8 Theory of Music with 100% marks.

2. Related to the above, the old manuscripts were often perhaps intended to be nothing more than as a personal 'aide memoire' for the compiler/musician concerned, so that they could quickly look up a tune as required and then go on to play it anyway, perhaps from memory.

In my own allocation of Buttrey transcriptions, I have adopted the approach of correcting any obvious errors, (e.g. the end of line note lengths mentioned above) but always documenting what I've done using the N: field. However, some of the MS tunes are ambiguous in their notation/meaning or otherwise obscure. In these cases I simply transcribe exactly what is written in the MS, 'warts and all' and add a note to that effect in the N: field.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2019, 07:57:12 PM »

Yes I suppose we are all so used to iPads, PCs smart phones all with ABC apps, recorded music and the Internet, we forget what it was like for old musicians when a bit of paper and a pen was the ultimate and only high tech!
Yes Chris has tipped me off about using the N: filed and making notes.
Im used to noting what I see rather than what I think I should see, so am perfectly happy to notate the ms as accurately as possible and let others decide what is appropriate.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2019, 10:43:06 PM »


2. Related to the above, the old manuscripts were often perhaps intended to be nothing more than as a personal 'aide memoire' for the compiler/musician concerned, so that they could quickly look up a tune as required and then go on to play it anyway, perhaps from memory.


I think, in the case of a lot of the manuscripts that come down from the old dance masters that is definitely the case. They picked up new tunes as they came across them and recorded them as  "aide memoire". The journey they went on is clear from the development of their repertoire.  I wonder if, in the case of collections like the Butterey, bearing in mind the the military origin and the necessity of a military musician having  access to what the band plays, and looking at the level of neatness and consistency of penmanship, I wonder if this is more a case of the apprentice musician doing a copying exercise from his comtemporary's personal manuscript's, or something like that.

I think there is a strong chance this was used as a tool for learning.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 10:45:06 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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