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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 29650 times)

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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #140 on: January 08, 2019, 05:41:23 PM »

Yes, me being sloppy again. Definite and indefinite. At least "Quick March, A" would be indexed under Q, rather than A along with all the "A Slow Marches". and "A Minuets"
Nora Crena/Creina exists elsewhere on VMP as a decent tune, indeed it's still used as a sword dance tune in Goathland, though I can't recall it's title. Beyond need for help in Buttrey, just note the fact and add the aka titles.

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #141 on: January 08, 2019, 09:23:53 PM »


Nora Crena/Creina exists elsewhere on VMP as a decent tune, indeed it's still used as a sword dance tune in Goathland, though I can't recall it's title. Beyond need for help in Buttrey, just note the fact and add the aka titles.

The title is a good 'un but I see absolutely no resemblance between the melodies. Advice taken. I'll kick the board over (:)
Nora Crena is a nice little tune, though. Shame it's not right.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #142 on: January 08, 2019, 09:31:56 PM »

The usual Irish spelling is Nora Criona (strictly Nóra Críona), which means "wise Nora". Pronounced "CREE-uh-nuh".
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #143 on: January 08, 2019, 11:06:58 PM »

The usual Irish spelling is Nora Criona (strictly Nóra Críona), which means "wise Nora". Pronounced "CREE-uh-nuh".

Does Criona mean crone?
I found tunes with your Irish spelling and tunes with the  other spelling. They were similar, but different.  I thought Criona was better than Creena. Pity they're not the tune I'm transcribing.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2019, 03:34:07 PM »

May I muddy the waters a little more?
I have a lot of "A Slow March"
I'd forgotten and sent my first five tunes to Chris to make sure I was ok in the right track.
Chris tweaked my tunes to exactly as you have it
ie T: Slow March. JBut.123, A

I have several starting with "A Retreat", or "A Troop",  or "The <something>", which I have rendered with the indefinite/definite
article at the end, thus:
T:Retreat. JBut.011, A
T:Troop. JBut.041, A
T:Dushey for Spoart - A Retreat. JBut.016, The
I presume these are all OK...

However, I also have a couple starting with "the <something>". If the first letter of the article is lower case, this dodge does
not work, ie:
T:gallant happy laddie (?) - A Retreat. JBut.004, the
fails in the sense that the "the" does not appear at the front of the title in the score..

The terminating definite/indefinite article has to be capitalised, so, do I leave it ASIS, or capitalise it, bearing in mind
that we are trying to reproduce the MS as closely as possible. Do I go for:
T:gallant happy laddie (?) - A Retreat. JBut.004, the or:
T:gallant happy laddie (?) - A Retreat. JBut.004, The

Also, I have some with two titles, eg:
T: The Dusty Miller - A Retreat(*). JBut.009
(there are other examples of this earlier in the post)

Should this become:
T:Dusty Miller - A Retreat(*). JBut.009, The
(which is what I have done)

or perhaps, be split into two title lines in some way:
T:Dusty Miller - A Retreat(*). JBut.009, The
T:Retreat(*). JBut.009, A

That is, a specific title line and a generic title line?

I can't imagine that, in the larger scheme of things, these are major problems, but it would be nice to be singing
from the same song-sheet first time around...

Roger


« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 03:36:30 PM by lachenal74693 »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2019, 04:22:35 PM »

Well, you live and learn!
I had never even noticed that articles at the end of the title were moved back to the beginning when rendered.
Or at least, they are by abcm2ps. There's nothing in the ABC v2.1 standard to say it should be done that way.

In answer to your question, I think keeping the lower case 'a' is a step too far in faithfully reproducing what was written in the ms.
To my mind, the indexing convenience would take priority, but I must emphasis that is only my opinion and not authoritative.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2019, 04:46:08 PM »

[personal opinion]

I agree with Anahata about capitalising the definate article, it allows the tune to display and print properly and the title to index properly, a minor correction that achieves a great deal. It's not as if the original cannot be consulted by scholars. If you want to be PC about it you could add "N:Definate article in title change to capital letter" to the header but don't bother adding an NB to the title.

The addition of a waltz, a hornpipe, a retreat etc to the tune title is a description of the tune type not an alternative title, just write it 'as is' in the title line.

[/personal opinion]
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2019, 06:05:02 PM »

Yes, judicious use of capitals is quite OK and doesn't misrepresent the author's intention. In the case where there is a given title followed by "a retreat" or similar, then treat "a retreat" as a comment, thus C:'a retreat'.
BTW, that isn't an instruction to advance in a negative direction, it's a tune that would be used in camp to amuse the relaxing soldiers. Sometimes jolly, often reflective.
I hesitate to  add to the pedantry, but the spelling is definite!  :-X

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #148 on: January 10, 2019, 07:55:59 PM »

... treat "a retreat" as a comment.
BTW, that isn't an instruction to advance in a negative direction, it's a tune that would be used in camp to amuse the relaxing soldiers. Sometimes jolly, often reflective.
I might as well chuck in my pennyworth of pedantry. I checked this out a few years ago when I was learning The Battle Of The Somme

Retreats were, originally, tunes played at the end of a day's fighting. There are bugle call Retreat's, which  were an instruction to troops to stop murdering the opposition and return to camp. There are marching retreats played during the return of troops to their fort/camp. As the nature of warfare changed Retreat, the bugle call, stayed as a way of signalling sundown. It is commonly known as Sundown. The marches classed as Retreats are still used as marches at ceremonial events. 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 07:57:57 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2019, 05:58:24 AM »

Yes, judicious use of capitals is quite OK and doesn't misrepresent the author's intention...
I hesitate to  add to the pedantry, but the spelling is definite! (ChrisP)

...I think keeping the lower case 'a' is a step too far in faithfully reproducing what was written in the ms... (Anahata)

..I agree with Anahata about capitalising the definate article, it allows the tune to display and print properly and the title to index properly...
(Pete Dunk)

Thank you folks. That was my thought, but I wanted to canvass the opinion of t'body o' t'kirk'. The suggestion
from PD re dual component titles seems sensible too.

FWIW, this indexing dodge seems to work for any capitalised word of upto (and including) 5 characters, so one
can do it with other langauges. I checked out definite and indefinite articles in French, German, Spanish, Italian
and Danish...

Finally, I assume that 'A Troop' is the name for a 'ceremonial' piece of music (cf 'Trooping the Colour')?

Roger
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 06:06:40 AM by lachenal74693 »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #150 on: January 11, 2019, 10:17:03 AM »

Just a quickie which I've noticed.
Whoever is transcribing tune no.123...
"The Honey Steps" in the blog is clearly a mis-reading of "The Stoney Steps", a well known 18th century English tune with several variants.  Have a look at the manuscript; you will see that what has been interpreted as the 'H' of 'Honey' is the same as the 'St' of 'Steps'.
 (:)
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #151 on: January 11, 2019, 10:35:31 AM »

I hesitate to  add to the pedantry, but the spelling is definite!  :-X

Whoops!

Just a quickie which I've noticed.
Whoever is transcribing tune no.123...
"The Honey Steps" in the blog is clearly a mis-reading of "The Stoney Steps", a well known 18th century English tune with several variants.  Have a look at the manuscript; you will see that what has been interpreted as the 'H' of 'Honey' is the same as the 'St' of 'Steps'.
 (:)

'Tis me Steve and I'd already spotted it, that's one tune I know quite well. As an aside I've now given up even looking at previous transcripts.  ::)
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #152 on: January 11, 2019, 11:01:28 AM »

...As an aside I've now given up even looking at previous transcripts.  ::)
Yeah - I'm just noting in my N: fields that such a transcription exists...
Later edit: Actually, I now see that new transcriptions are regularly being added, so I'm not even
going to record them in an N: field...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 06:04:56 AM by Roger Hare »
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nigelr

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2019, 01:20:57 PM »

Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.

However, playing the tune, it is clearly a version of Banks of the Dee (albeit a bit odd in places).

Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?

Thanks.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2019, 02:04:52 PM »

Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.

However, playing the tune, it is clearly a version of Banks of the Dee (albeit a bit odd in places).

Would it be best to leave the 4th bar empty except for the note you can see and annotate it in the N: fields, or fill in the blanks from what we know as Banks of the Dee (but again annotating it)?

Thanks.

I just had exactly the same issue with JBut.494, Pinkie's House. The final bar on the line was truncated. I added the note it was likely to be, based on another source of the tune and the way the rest of the tune is scored and noted what I had done as an NB comment..
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2019, 02:16:26 PM »

Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.


Is this a setting of [New] Lango Lee, a tune which crops up in a few early tune books?
[which has been a tune in at least one previous VMP  X:54 T:Lango Lee THO4.054, New]
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 02:21:16 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
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nigelr

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2019, 02:22:56 PM »

Tune 445 (Lange Lee) has been chopped a bit by the positioning of the photo so you can't see the full fourth bar of the A part.
Is this a setting of [New] Lango Lee, a tune which crops up in a few early tune books?
[which has been a tune in at least one previous VMP  X:54 T:Lango Lee THO4.054, New]
Thanks Greg, I'll have a look.
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nigelr

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #157 on: January 11, 2019, 02:24:00 PM »

Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #158 on: January 11, 2019, 02:28:13 PM »

Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?

segno?
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Greg Smith
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #159 on: January 11, 2019, 02:38:31 PM »

Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?

Seeing as the blob under it looks like it was a D that has been messily corrected to an E, I'd guess that's a rather curly 'E'.
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