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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 30091 times)

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nigelr

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #160 on: January 11, 2019, 02:43:17 PM »

Any opinions as to what this mark above the E5 represents?
Seeing as the blob under it looks like it was a D that has been messily corrected to an E, I'd guess that's a rather curly 'E'.
Ahh, that makes sense - there are 2 occurrences of this in tunes 454 and 455, both above splodgy Es.  What is it they say, "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras" - when you see an "E" ...  (:)
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #161 on: January 11, 2019, 03:15:06 PM »

I've completed my allocation of tunes nos. 44 - 78.
Files attached, if you want to see what I've done and my methodology for N: fields, etc.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #162 on: January 11, 2019, 04:57:03 PM »

I've completed my allocation of tunes nos. 44 - 78.
Files attached, if you want to see what I've done and my methodology for N: fields, etc.
Ta. I completed the first rough transcription of tune nos. 1-43 this morning, and now need to go
through 'proof-reading'. Your file will be a valuable aid to ensuring that I comply as far as possible
with the VMP 'standard'.
Roger
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #163 on: January 15, 2019, 11:55:50 PM »

Doh! More dumb questions from a first-timer:

1) some bars are split across two lines - do we record that in our notes?
2) there are some instances where one tune ends, and another starts in mid-line - do we record that in our notes?

Or is this too much detail? Thank you for your patience, folks.

Roger
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 11:57:36 PM by Roger Hare »
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Anahata

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #164 on: January 16, 2019, 12:24:39 AM »

 I wouldn't. Tunes starting mid line and lines split across the bar are just the result of trying to save paper. The back-to-back repeats between tunes can be ignored too. Tunes may or may not have been played as a non-stop medley but we don't know, so shouldn't assume they were. All IMHO of course.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #165 on: January 16, 2019, 07:43:02 AM »

What Anahata said.
With respect to the back-to-back repeats between tunes, I normally put a repeat double bar line |: at the very start of the tune. All the tunes I've transcribed thus far seem to need a repeated A-music.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #166 on: January 16, 2019, 11:21:40 AM »

1) I wouldn't. Tunes starting mid line and lines split across the bar are just the result of trying to save paper. The back-to-back
repeats between tunes can be ignored too. Tunes may or may not have been played as a non-stop medley but we don't know,
so shouldn't assume they were. All IMHO of course.

2) What Anahata said.
With respect to the back-to-back repeats between tunes, I normally put a repeat double bar line |: at the very start of the tune.
All the tunes I've transcribed thus far seem to need a repeated A-music.

1) Noted. Makes sense to me, and I can't see such annotations in any of t'other VMP scripts I've looked at.

2) Yup! All 'my' tunes seem to be the same, and I'm following the same procedure.

Thank you folks.

Roger.
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Anahata

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #167 on: January 16, 2019, 02:24:11 PM »

From https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=17 :

Quote
Repeat marks at the beginning of a tune are conventionally missed out and therefore usually considered optional. The exception is in multi-voiced tunes, which ABC2midi won’t play correctly if the initial repeat marks are missing.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 02:33:52 PM by Anahata »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #168 on: January 16, 2019, 03:00:48 PM »

From https://www.village-music-project.org.uk/?page_id=17 :

Quote
Repeat marks at the beginning of a tune are conventionally missed out and therefore usually considered optional. The exception is in multi-voiced tunes, which ABC2midi won’t play correctly if the initial repeat marks are missing.

Thanks for posting that link. I don't think I had seen that page before. If I had, I must have not looked at the detail. Towards the bottom of the page there are what amount to detailed instructions on how to resolve and record the dilemmas I am left with. I wish I had been aware of it before.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #169 on: January 16, 2019, 03:08:45 PM »

Just come across my first fermata. Dug out info earlier in this thread so put H before note.

Looking back across this thread to find out how best to notate, came across nigelr's 'curly E'
A few tunes back I had a capital 'D' above the stave. Looking at it, I realised he meant 'this note is a 'D'...'
The stave line above this note has been poorly written and dipped almost touching the line below, so it makes sense he was notating it to let us know he meant a D to be played. How considerate  ;)

Just getting on to some tunes with poorly curling photographs at the start of the tunes, making key and time signatures 'interesting'!
All the more fun  (:)
Upwards and onwards.........
cheers
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2019, 03:11:17 PM »

In all this, we bear in mind that we are not trying to replicate the appearance on the page exackertally as the manuscript has it. The digital images are available for that, after all. We are reproducing what we can divine of the author's intention into modern notation conventions that a modern reader can easily understand. It can be argued that a reader can work out the intention behind the incorrect phrase endings, and that is true, but we also take into consideration that midi playback programs, like ABC2midi, are unable to do that, and can mess up, so please tidy them up if you can (recording what you have done into the N: field)

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #171 on: January 16, 2019, 05:22:34 PM »

...take into consideration that midi playback programs, like ABC2midi, are unable to do that, and
can mess up, so please tidy them up if you can (recording what you have done into the N: field)

Right on! I just finished editing something where there appears to be an underfull bar in the MS. I have
inserted a tentative 'correction', but I think EasyABC might have been c*cking up my 'correction' a little,
so I have just done the best I can, leaving it to wiser heads than mine to make the final decision.

On the subject of (usually) |: and (sometimes) :|, I have started out by putting 'em at the start/end of
each part (as suggested in the 'Transcriber's Notes'), but sometimes, by shifting them 'one note to the
right/left' I have got the tune sounding 'OK'. I am doing this in preference to actually changing the note
 as written in the MS (actually changing stuff except where it's absoulutely unavoidable is still giving me
the colly-wobbles).
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 04:51:47 AM by Roger Hare »
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nigelr

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #172 on: January 17, 2019, 11:08:10 AM »

I've now done the first cut of my allocation (413-462).  I've encountered a broad variety of issues, mainly:

- Odd symbols (see "E" issue above)
- Note legibility
- Odd number of bars (eg A or B part having 5, 7 or 12 bars)
- Key/mode changes (ie MS states two sharps, website says key is in D but playing the tune it is clearly E dorian)
- Incorrect time signatures, mainly limited to tunes actually being 4/4 rather than the indicated 2/2
- Incorrect bar lengths (although only a handful of these and mainly on a repeat where the tune has an anacrusis)

I have noted each occurrence of the above in the N: fields along with any observations on whether the tune is the same as an existing well known tune.  As my tune knowledge is not particularly broad, I suspect that others will know far more on these than I do.

My plan now is to revisit each one, proof read and listen to the ABC again to make sure it sounds "right" and make any final tweaks, again noting any changes in the N: fields.  I think at this point I will have reached my limit and will hand over to VMP for the guidance of those more experienced.

However, this is something I've really enjoyed doing.  N
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #173 on: January 17, 2019, 12:10:28 PM »


- Key/mode changes (ie MS states two sharps, website says key is in D but playing the tune it is clearly E dorian)
- Incorrect time signatures, mainly limited to tunes actually being 4/4 rather than the indicated 2/2


If you're OK with modes that definitely is to be done.

With regard to time signatures there are often cases where a tune is clearly in 3/2 but signed as 3//4 or 6/4, and these need changing when spotted, and NB'd. Common time sigs I tend to leave alone as long as it doesn't cause complete mayhem. We don't really know how many beats were going on in someone's head when they wrote down a hornpipe for instance, it would depend on circumstances. Certainly 2/2 when written, or C|, adequately describes a bar with two groups of four quavers if that's how the author has it. And since C is the same as 4/4, enter it as per the MS.

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #174 on: January 17, 2019, 05:48:28 PM »

1) - Odd symbols (see "E" issue above)

2) - Key/mode changes (ie MS states two sharps, website says key is in D but playing the tune it is clearly E dorian)

3) However, this is something I've really enjoyed doing.

1) My odd symbol is the 'S' in the centre of the line shown in the attached .jpg. I interpreted it as a rest,
but a musical colleague who is a professional - an ex-orchestral player, tells me that something like this may
have been used in old MSS to mean something like "play the last note again". Comments?

2) I'm only capable of applying the simple 'rule' relating to the final note. For example, "If it's scored in one
sharp (ie: G), but ends on an A, then it's A dorian.". (this is effectively the same as the example quoted above.)
Is this simple approach OK? I mean, it can go completely pear-shaped if the original writer of the MS has made
a mistake in transcription, or if the edge of a photograph/image has ben clipped..

3) Moi aussi!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 06:04:54 PM by Roger Hare »
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #175 on: January 17, 2019, 06:21:33 PM »

1) My odd symbol is the 'S' in the centre of the line shown in the attached .jpg. I interpreted it as a rest,
but a musical colleague who is a professional - an ex-orchestral player, tells me that something like this may
have been used in old MSS to mean something like "play the last note again". Comments?
That's a curious one. Without the sign, there are only two beats in that bar so it could be a crotchet rest. I don't think it means play the "play the last note again". There are many instances in that tune and others where that meaning could have been applied but wasn't.

My guess is that it is either a turn (grupetta) or a segno sign. If you look at the entire tune (not just your jpg extract) there is possibly an additional repeat mark at the very end - a couple of very fine dots just above the stave. It might indicate a  'D.C. al segno' instruction, where by you finally repeat back to your curious 's' sign and play through the the end of the fisrt section and then stop, asif there were a 'Fine' marking. But I am not convinced.

It might be worth finding some independent sources of 'Lovely Nancy' and comparing those tune structures to the Buttrey MS. It might help decipher the 's'.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #176 on: January 17, 2019, 06:26:25 PM »



1) My odd symbol is the 'S' in the centre of the line shown in the attached .jpg. I interpreted it as a rest,
but a musical colleague who is a professional - an ex-orchestral player, tells me that something like this may
have been used in old MSS to mean something like "play the last note again". Comments?


Other settings of Lovely Nancy have a trill there. The symbol does look rather like a cadence or turn rotated through 90 degrees.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #177 on: January 17, 2019, 06:38:19 PM »

Other settings of Lovely Nancy have a trill there. The symbol does look rather like a cadence or turn rotated through 90 degrees.

That's interesting. It adds weight to my turn theory!
Assuming it is a turn, which I now think is the most likely explanation, the first note needs to be made a minim instead of a crotchet and the turn symbol applied to it. Document your edits in the N: fields and you should be OK.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #178 on: January 17, 2019, 06:53:36 PM »

I've just come across odd bar numbers, often accompanied by a overly large number of notes in one bar!
Yep, careful scrutiny ably assisted by increasing the image size on my iPad shows I've missed a very feint bar line.
Keeps me on my toes this transcribing stuff  ;D
Q
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #179 on: January 17, 2019, 07:29:42 PM »

Other settings of Lovely Nancy have a trill there. The symbol does look rather like a cadence or turn rotated through 90 degrees.

Yes, I've six or seven other settings - one has a trill there, one has a grace note. I'll look at it in more detail
when I get to it - I'm systematically working through the second pass proof-reading at the moment.

It was the fact that it looked like a valid symbol, but rotated through 90 degrees which got me wondering
in the first instance...

I hadn't spotted the two very fine dots over the final :|. I may try that one just for ducks...

Roger
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