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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 30089 times)

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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2019, 05:20:06 AM »

'My' section (1-43) includes several tunes where the Buttrey team have already transcribed the tune and included a JPEG image of the score on the web site. I am using these as the initial basis for my own transcriptions, but once I have an initial draft, I will go back and carefully compare the Buttrey transcriptionwith the page image, and make any 'necessary' changes.
Please note that the previous transcribers were working from what I am told was a really horrible 1970's microfiche or later on some early 1990's black & white photos taken by Fort York. They are now in love with the new colour photos taken by me and Ross Flowers which are "so much easier to read" (although still quite something to tackle). So what you are seeing is probably much more accurate than what they were able to see.

I should perhaps add that as I have gained more confidence in this exercise (it's the first time I have
been involved in this sort of thing), I have actually gone back and re-transcribed those tunes myself,
starting from scratch and using the colour illustrations on the Buttrey web-site.

Roger
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Music Packages (ABC/PDF/MIDI)    Thompson's Compleat Tutor for Fife (c.1765)

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2019, 07:01:01 AM »

Hmm! I appear to be a busy boy this morning - to some purpose, I hope.

I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?

Once downloaded as a PDF file, the pages seem a bit slow to display, but pass it through
a filter such as: https://online2pdf.com/convert-tiff-to-pdf and it seems to display OK.

Roger

Later edit: This also seems to be available at:
https://archive.org/details/imslp-compleat-tutor-for-the-fife-anonymous

and at:
https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/97135480
I don't fully understand the NLS archive - they seem to have items archived in two
locations - Internet Archive and the NLS web-site cited above. Belt and braces, I suppose...

I have not been able to find ABC versions of the tunes, though there is a 'shell' ABC script
somewhere at abcnotation.com.

There is a paid-for printed enhanced version available from: https://beafifer.com/

There is also a similarly named document by George Willig (pub. 1805, Philadelphia), also
available from the Be A Fifer site.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 08:09:08 AM by Roger Hare »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2019, 09:46:42 AM »

I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?
One of the interesting things is the collection of tunes, some of which are in the Buttrey MS. In the tutor book, the tunes are very clearly written and, one assumes, accurate! This might be useful when trying to decipher some of Buttrey's wilder transcribings!   ::)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2019, 09:50:23 AM »

Hmm! I appear to be a busy boy this morning - to some purpose, I hope.

I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?


Lovely clear images.

There are already transcriptions of a number of Thompson's Compleat collections in Chris's VMP collection, but I didn't spot this little gem.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #224 on: January 26, 2019, 10:18:01 AM »

One of the interesting things is the collection of tunes, some of which are in the Buttrey MS. In the tutor book, the tunes are very clearly written and, one assumes, accurate! This might be useful when trying to decipher some of Buttrey's wilder transcribings!   ::)

Precisely! I thought it might be of interest (a) because of the clear explanation of the musical theory at the start - with
the symbols used, and; (b) because of the tune collection. I know a couple of the tunes (Rogues March, Capt. Reed's
March), but t'others are mostly new to me.

There's no date on the front page, but the use of the 'long s', albeit with the tail truncated might help pin it down.(*) Why
is this of interest? Because if some of the tunes here are also in the Buttrey MS, we ask "Did John Buttrey copy some of
his tunes down out of this collection"? (Well, I do...)

...I didn't spot this little gem.

So it's a 'little gem' is it? Oh, goodie! I'll probably transcribe a few of the tunes when I get a minute - just for ducks...

Roger

(*) Edit a few minutes later: I now see that Thompson's dates are given on the VMP web-site as 1758-1780, so
presumably this collection was published well before John Buttrey started messing us all about...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 11:09:30 AM by Roger Hare »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #225 on: January 26, 2019, 10:35:05 AM »

Roger - Oh well played that man!
It is indeed a little gem, something to plunder when the opportunity arises.
Flicking through I see it's got the Rogue's March and March in Scipio too. Published in 1765, and both tunes still in frequent use. I love the longevity of traditional music, as opposed to the ephemeral nature of rock and pop.
Yes that's a lovely little backburner.
well spotted!
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #226 on: January 26, 2019, 11:19:24 AM »

... Because if some of the tunes here are also in the Buttrey MS, we ask "Did John Buttrey copy some of
his tunes down out of this collection"? (Well, I do...)...

Roger

I would imagine there's an excellent chance that Buttrey was familiar with this fife tutor. I believe Thompson's Compleat collections took over from Playord's as the standard tune books of the time in the 18th C, eventually to be followed by Aird's Airs. There's a wealth of stuff to get lost in, if you're that way minded (as I am).

If you haven't done already, you might enjoy checking some of these out (other Thompson's Compleat collections are on here along with loads of other stuff).

http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html
and here, for Aird's Airs facsimile:
https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)
and here for Aird's abc files:
http://www.campin.me.uk/

These are all great resources.

[Edit, as are these, which are the one's that got me started
http://www.oldmusicproject.com/oneils1.html   ]
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 11:34:50 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #227 on: January 26, 2019, 12:25:10 PM »

I just came across this: https://archive.org/details/compleattutorfor00ingl/page/n6 in
the archives of the National Library of Scotland. It might be of interest in the context of
transcribing a manuscript collection of fife tunes?


Lovely clear images.


That music looks like it's printed, not handwritten, which helps to explain its clarity.
It's a great collection. I've just nicked a tune from it to learn, and discovered that the four part march I call "The Trayne of Artillery" is in fact a concatenation of "The Grenadiers' Train of Artillery" and "The Marquis of Granby's March".
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #228 on: January 26, 2019, 02:24:17 PM »

That music looks like it's printed, not handwritten, which helps to explain its clarity...

Aye, it is - I should have made that clear in my initial mention of it... Roger.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #229 on: January 26, 2019, 03:05:15 PM »

...In the tutor book, the tunes are very clearly written and, one assumes, accurate!
Ah, me! If you are a pedant (like me!) who wants stuff to play correctly in an ABC player, the very first
note is 'wrong'. 'Tis a crotchet, when methinks to get the repeat to play properly, should be a quaver...

There is a mark called a 'Direct' which looks like a 'w' with a thin final stroke - these appear to be used at
the end of a line to indicate the first note on the next line.

I am interpreting a 'Shake' as !trill!, the 'Repeat' could be the 'S' which I raised a day or so ago.

They are all in the cropped page image attached to this post...
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #230 on: January 26, 2019, 03:53:34 PM »

Thompson Vols 1 3 and 4 on Chris' page were transcibed for the VMP by me in 2010/11/12 from PDF transcriptions by Fynn Titford-Mock in 2007. It's much quicker and easier working from printed matter!
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #231 on: January 26, 2019, 04:24:13 PM »

Ah, me! If you are a pedant (like me!) who wants stuff to play correctly in an ABC player, the very first
note is 'wrong'. 'Tis a crotchet, when methinks to get the repeat to play properly, should be a quaver...
Yes - well spotted! It should indeed be a quaver. Never mind! Change it to a quaver to play properly in ABC!

Quote
There is a mark called a 'Direct' which looks like a 'w' with a thin final stroke - these appear to be used at
the end of a line to indicate the first note on the next line.
Yes - that's a rarely used instruction. Elsewhere it is sometimes shown as a note head in brackets. But when the staves are all clearly visible, as here, the 'direction' is pretty much redundant; indeed it's more of a distraction.
Also, the 'w' sign could be mistaken for a mordant.

Quote
I am interpreting a 'Shake' as !trill!,
Yes, that's an old term for a trill.

Quote
the 'Repeat' could be the 'S' which I raised a day or so ago.

Strictly, the segno 'S' sign should be used to mark the place where you should repeat back to. Usually the actual repeat should be a D.S. (Dal Segno) instruction, as opposed to a D.C. (Da Capo) which means go back to the beginning. But I couldn't find any actual examples of D.S. in the tunes which follow.

Most of the terms are explained in more detail on the page following your cropped image.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #232 on: January 26, 2019, 05:42:35 PM »

Ah, me! If you are a pedant (like me!) who wants stuff to play correctly in an ABC player, the very first
note is 'wrong'. 'Tis a crotchet, when methinks to get the repeat to play properly, should be a quaver...

It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note.

To get a machine to play it "correctly" a second ending with a quaver might be a more accurate solution.
Trouble is, these scores were written for humans capable of making judgements, or even the personal use of the scribe. A human doesn't need that degree of accuracy. I sure Chris would prefer the quaver compromise but, those using the manuscript to learn tunes from probably wouldn't even have noticed. It's purpose was for people to use them, not machine's

If you're trying to get an idea of what a tune should sound like you're far, far better off listening to a recording of someone playing it well. If it's a tune that has never broken out of it's source MSS now's your opportunity to create something.

Having said that, maybe technology will overtake my opinion. Maybe someone has come up with plug ins that can add realistic 17th and 18th C dance rhythms to a raw file. Can't be that hard. It's easy to do for contemporary dance music.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #233 on: January 26, 2019, 07:28:13 PM »

It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note. etc...

Yeah, I have that feeling nagging away at me in the background all the time, which is why I put
'wrong' in quotes. It's a b*gger...
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2019, 07:30:15 PM »

It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note. etc...

Yeah, I have that feeling nagging away at me in the background all the time, which is why I put
'wrong' in quotes. It's a b*gger...

If it makes you feel better, Chris said change it to make it play right, when I asked him about this sort of issue, but make the smallest changes you can.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #235 on: January 27, 2019, 12:50:24 AM »

It's perfectly possible the crotchet is correct for the first note.
Yes - on looking at the tune again, you're probably right.

But then, to be strictly correct, the A-music needs to end with a 1st time and a 2nd time bar - the 1st time with a crotchet before the repeat sign, and the 2nd time with a dotted crotchet to lead into the B-music. Then following on, the B-music also needs to end with a 1st time and a 2nd time bar - the 1st time with a dotted crotchet before the repeat sign, and the 2nd time with a crotchet to ensure rhythmic integrity with the opening crotchet.

Amending the tune in this way would ensure it played correctly in ABC.

It's all a bit pedantic - the meaning of the tune as it stands is clear enough, but you would lose marks in Grade 5 theory of music if you wrote it as printed.  ;)
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #236 on: January 27, 2019, 02:20:33 PM »

I have a slightly wonky W, leaning down at 45 degrees  above the note.
It's not at the end of a line, could it be a trill?
Q at it again.....
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #237 on: January 27, 2019, 02:29:36 PM »

I have a slightly wonky W, leaning down at 45 degrees

You can get tablets for that.  :|glug
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #238 on: January 27, 2019, 02:33:21 PM »

 ;D
you bad lad...…. but is it a trill?
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #239 on: January 27, 2019, 02:35:27 PM »

I have a slightly wonky W, leaning down at 45 degrees  above the note.
It's not at the end of a line, could it be a trill?

Is it like the attached? I have several of these and have interpreted them as a trill.
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