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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 30163 times)

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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #340 on: February 19, 2019, 11:55:30 AM »

...N:NB1 There appears to be an upside down fermata against this note [the A in bar 2]...

I just looked at the example you cite. There is also a fermata above the same note, in the 'standard'
position. Is that correct? Maybe that will make a difference, but FWIW:

I have just finished transcribing the 80+ tunes in Thompson's The Compleat Tutor for the Fife. I just
checked the PDF copy of the original document, and there are several instances of an inverted fermata
below the staff. Not having seen this before, I had assumed that this was simply 18th-century laissez-faire
coupled with a 'free-style' approach to typesetting/typography. I simply assumed they were 'standard'
fermata, and registered them as such in my ABC code. I now see that there is an !invertedfermata!
decoration. Maybe I need to go back and correct my ABC. AtW, the fermata may be placed under the
note.

There were no examples that I registered of a fermata both above and below the same note.

Roger
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 01:53:30 PM by Roger Hare »
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #341 on: February 19, 2019, 01:49:24 PM »

Here in the UK, unlike over the pond, we do not have a folk memory of fife & drum bands, though there may be some re-enactors somewhere. As a consequence we don't really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are, so I'm guessing here. Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff, where your regiment is up next, standing waiting? You start with a fanfare, breaking the rhythm established by the previous regiment, using long fermata and elaborate drum rolls, then set off marching proudly past the podium with measured steps to a jaunty tune, showing off your uniform and muskets. In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer, and the word under is "Roll".

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #342 on: February 19, 2019, 04:27:37 PM »

1) ...though there may be some re-enactors somewhere....

2) ...Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff...

3) In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer,
    and the word under is "Roll".

1) The place is positively crawlin' with 'em, though I haven't checked (yet?) to see if they have
fife and drum bands. See: https://www.historic-uk.com/LivingHistory/ReenactorsDirectory/

2) As in 'Trooping the Color'?

3) Dare I say it, I did wonder if that was what it meant, though I couldn't have come up with the
eminently sensible reason given in CP's post to save my life...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:38:12 PM by Roger Hare »
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Rob Lands

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #343 on: February 19, 2019, 05:59:15 PM »

It appears military music is an area of research at the OU http://fass.open.ac.uk/music/project/music-military-culture
However there isn't much on the connected websites - there is a list of military music publishers from 1770 through 1800's and a diary reproduction from a musician.
Interestingly it does suggest that in the early 1800's musicians were employed (not necessarily military) and paid for by the officers as a house band.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #344 on: February 19, 2019, 06:29:17 PM »

...we don't really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are, so I'm guessing here. Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff, where your regiment is up next, standing waiting? You start with a fanfare, breaking the rhythm established by the previous regiment, using long fermata and elaborate drum rolls, then set off marching proudly past the podium with measured steps to a jaunty tune, showing off your uniform and muskets. In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer, and the word under is "Roll".

Just to make the waters a bit muddier, as well as Troops I have a number of Drags aka Draggs. These tunes seem to start with with short sections that suggest bugle calls. I strongly suspect that these tunes are indeed used for marches past of forces of the sizes of troops and dragoons, respectively.

I'm not so sure about the fermata being for emphasis, in this case though.  I have a tune where they are clearly acting as segni but where signed ...unusually!

I am inclined to describe them as they appear and list both possibilities unless you think better.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #345 on: February 19, 2019, 09:04:08 PM »

I wouldn't worry about the inverted fermata, on that note at least.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols says a fermata is placed "above or below" the note
https://www.thoughtco.com/fermata-definition-2701038 - seems to suggest it applies to the lower note if there are two notes in the same time position.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #346 on: February 19, 2019, 09:45:16 PM »

...we don't really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are, so I'm guessing here. Isn't this ceremonial parade ground stuff, where your regiment is up next, standing waiting? You start with a fanfare, breaking the rhythm established by the previous regiment, using long fermata and elaborate drum rolls, then set off marching proudly past the podium with measured steps to a jaunty tune, showing off your uniform and muskets. In which case the under-and-over fermata means hold the note for even longer, and the word under is "Roll".

Just to make the waters a bit muddier, as well as Troops I have a number of Drags aka Draggs. These tunes seem to start with with short sections that suggest bugle calls. I strongly suspect that these tunes are indeed used for marches past of forces of the sizes of troops and dragoons, respectively.

I'm not so sure about the fermata being for emphasis, in this case though.  I have a tune where they are clearly acting as segni but where signed ...unusually!

I am inclined to describe them as they appear and list both possibilities unless you think better.
A drag is a basic drum paradiddle, a double drag another.

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #347 on: February 19, 2019, 10:36:24 PM »

I wouldn't worry about the inverted fermata, on that note at least.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_symbols says a fermata is placed "above or below" the note
https://www.thoughtco.com/fermata-definition-2701038 - seems to suggest it applies to the lower note if there are two notes in the same time position.

fwiw, there are two fermata (one above and  one below) and one note.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #348 on: February 20, 2019, 12:25:46 AM »

fwiw, there are two fermata (one above and  one below) and one note.

Yes, I know. I was implying that you can ignore the inverted one as redundant, as it's not covered by any common rule of musical notation.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #349 on: February 20, 2019, 11:51:11 AM »

Here in the UK, unlike over the pond, we do not have a folk memory of fife & drum bands,...we don't
really know what "Troops" and "Short Troops" are etc...

I just found an interesting if slightly speculative 'timetable' of when these things would be played. The
emphasis seems to be on the practices of Washington's Revolutionary army, and on drummers, but fifes
are mentioned...

http://www.fifedrum.org/crfd/CRFD6.htm
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 11:52:49 AM by Roger Hare »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #350 on: February 20, 2019, 12:39:41 PM »

Having been booked some years back, to dance at the English Heritage weekend, we went from the normal Morris home of a folk festival into the unknown world of historical enactors.
Having seen legions of Roman Centurians, hefted a pike from a Roundhead and met everyone from WWII German U Boat commander to Saxon peasants, I'm sure there are historical groups in this country of a similar mind to the enactors across the pond
Q

Ps... try typing the above into a smart phone.
My predictive text has had a melt down  ;D
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Julian S

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #351 on: February 20, 2019, 03:26:03 PM »

I have an old friend who is a folk music enthusiast, historical reenactor (Napoleonic period etc etc), specialist in military history and curator of a Regimental museum. I was due to see him last week and planned to pick his brains on this subject over several beers but as I was struck down with the dreaded lurgi I couldn't. If he doesn't know about the subject, he is bound to know who does...will update in due course !

J
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #352 on: February 20, 2019, 09:51:11 PM »

N:NB1 There appears to be an upside down fermata against this note [the A in bar 2]
N:NB2 There is a word written underneath this note which is difficult to decipher [the D in bar 8] but may read "Note" or may not.
N:The intentions of the fermata and the written instruction are unclear but may indicate some kind of D.S.
Here's some close-ups in case they help. Looking more like Roll to me than Note.
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #353 on: February 20, 2019, 10:41:57 PM »

A drag is a basic drum paradiddle, a double drag another.
Hi - Decided to ask my Drum Major friend, Ross Flowers of the Drums of the Crown Forces, here in Canada. Not sure if it clarifies or muddles, but here's his answer:

"Well its not really a paradiddle

A drag is a beat on the drum - two strokes on one had and a single stroke on the other
A double drag as its name implies is beaten together, with the opposite hands involved

There are however drum beatings that are called “Single Drag” and “Double Drag”.  They are more involved that just the simple beat

A paradiddle consists of four beats of the drum, such as RLRR or LRLL"
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #354 on: February 20, 2019, 10:49:34 PM »

Again - I asked Ross Flowers, Drum Major of the Drums of the Crown Forces (https://www.drums1812.org/aboutus). Not only did he send an answer about "Troop" but says the Drums of the Crown Forces will be in the Cardiff and London in September and he'd would love to meet you folk.

"A Troop is a signal, usually with fife and drum, to call soldiers together. Some Troops are used as a signal for the regiment to assemble on the parade ground. Some, and I think this is in reference to a Short Troop, is to signal the calling together of those forming the Guard."
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 02:40:11 PM by Sandra Cameron »
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #355 on: February 21, 2019, 12:25:11 AM »

A drag is a basic drum paradiddle, a double drag another.
Hi - Decided to ask my Drum Major friend, Ross Flowers of the Drums of the Crown Forces, here in Canada. Not sure if it clarifies or muddles, but here's his answer:

"Well its not really a paradiddle

A drag is a beat on the drum - two strokes on one had and a single stroke on the other
A double drag as its name implies is beaten together, with the opposite hands involved

There are however drum beatings that are called “Single Drag” and “Double Drag”.  They are more involved that just the simple beat

A paradiddle consists of four beats of the drum, such as RLRR or LRLL"

Sorry about that. I was speaking sloppily as a non-drummer, meaning some sort of rattletattle on the drum. Am I going to be in trouble for misusing rattletattle?  :P ;D

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #356 on: February 21, 2019, 02:33:03 AM »

Sorry about that. I was speaking sloppily as a non-d
rummer, meaning some sort of rattletattle on the drum. Am I going to be in trouble for misusing rattletattle?
Definite not in trouble. (:)   Just really, really glad you have taken this project on. Ross, me and many others
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 02:40:46 PM by Sandra Cameron »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #357 on: February 21, 2019, 10:39:15 AM »

Hi Gang,
Just come across something odd and I don't know what it is:
currently transcribing tune 691.
The second line of notes has something that looks like a 'S' slightly laid on it's side, with 2 dots inside the top curl of the S and one dot inside the lower curl.
I have no idea what this is!
Advice please.
thanks
Q
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #358 on: February 21, 2019, 10:58:48 AM »

Hi Gang,
Just come across something odd and I don't know what it is:
currently transcribing tune 691.
The second line of notes has something that looks like a 'S' slightly laid on it's side, with 2 dots inside the top curl of the S and one dot inside the lower curl.
I have no idea what this is!
Advice please.
thanks
Q
I think it is a 'segno' sign. There are two of them, which appear to have been added to the MS subsequently in a different hand, pen and ink, possibly to correct a missing section of music.  I think in this case the idea is that you play through until you get to the second segno sign then jump back to the first segno sign and play from there, continuing on to the end (with normal repeats as shown).

In an ABC transcription you could use the !segno! instruction to indicate each sign; also add a explanatory note in the N: field.
It will probably confuse an ABC playback device but unfortunately the user will have to live with it. The important thing is to get the transcription done rather than worry too much about the niceties of playback.   
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #359 on: February 21, 2019, 11:05:15 AM »

Thanks Steve, another thing to add to my growing knowledge!
Yes there are two, as you rightly say.
OK. Will include notation and make a note as suggested.
Thank you
Q
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
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