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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 29835 times)

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #360 on: February 21, 2019, 11:56:18 AM »

Hi Gang,
Just come across something odd and I don't know what it is:
currently transcribing tune 691.
The second line of notes has something that looks like a 'S' slightly laid on it's side, with 2 dots inside the top curl of the S and one dot inside the lower curl.
I have no idea what this is!
Advice please.
thanks
Q

Definitely segni (IMHO). I have had a similar scoring. The second segno is, effectively, a D.S. instruction. In the example I had, the segni were slightly different to each other, wrt the position of the dots. Don't know if that had any significance or just the way it came out.

I coded the first one !segno! and the second one !D.S.! and noted the original form shown the MS.
Possibly significantly, my example had an associated !fermata! which seems to act as a Fine. Did you notice this? Mine would have not made sense without it.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:57:59 AM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #361 on: February 21, 2019, 12:16:11 PM »

Thanks Greg.
I have two segno's a section apart and it looks like a fermata across two 'joins'  - :| |: but not 'attached' to a segno.
I've made notes in the N: section and hope Chris will sort them out when he gets my notations. 
I work on the principal that my musical knowledge isn't great, but if I can transpose accurately and draw Chris's attention to the points I don't understand, that will make his life a lot easier. I hope!
cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #362 on: February 21, 2019, 12:27:05 PM »

Thanks Greg.
I have two segno's a section apart and it looks like a fermata across two 'joins'  - :| |: but not 'attached' to a segno.
I've made notes in the N: section and hope Chris will sort them out when he gets my notations. 
I work on the principal that my musical knowledge isn't great, but if I can transpose accurately and draw Chris's attention to the points I don't understand, that will make his life a lot easier. I hope!
cheers
Q

 :D (:) :Ph

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #363 on: February 21, 2019, 12:28:53 PM »

 ;D
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I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #364 on: February 21, 2019, 12:46:12 PM »

Thanks Greg.
I have two segno's a section apart and it looks like a fermata across two 'joins'  - :| |: but not 'attached' to a segno.
Q

That's yer man  (:) Just the same as mine.

The fermata is associated with the two segni, though. You play to the second one, go back to the first and play to the fermata.

[Edit. Ah! It's The Fall Of Paris. One of my  favourite tunes and another copied straight from Aird's  Vol 6.
I used to play it a lot. Sounds great on the melodeon. Time to revive it, I think. It was the "Lilly Marlene" of the Napoleonic wars. Every side played it. It's associated  "A Ciera!" A song of the French revolution. The words, concern stringing aristocrats from lamp posts. It was reputed to have been sung at the storming of the Bastille. Apparently the triumphant allied armies started playing it when they marched into Paris but Wellington ordered them to stop because he thought it would upset the ruling classes! Made them play "Croppies Lie Down" (a good oppressive number) instead.]
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:02:46 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #365 on: February 21, 2019, 01:26:01 PM »

Oh ok thanks Greg.
Will go back and see what I've done in my notation.
Cheers
Q
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #366 on: February 21, 2019, 02:11:46 PM »

One incidental further remark, fwiw. The Buttrey setting and the Aird's setting aren't quite identical. The notes are the same, but the repeat is different, in Aird's he intstruction is D.C., not D.S.. In other words, it goes back to the beginning, not to an intermediate segno. Maybe the band played it like this, so he changed it.
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Greg Smith
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #367 on: February 21, 2019, 02:29:17 PM »

For anyone interested, Aird's Airs are available for free here. They seem to be the source of a number of Buttrey's tunes. It seems likely that he either had access to vol. 6 or to a source that took the tunes from Aird's vol. 6.

https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)

Argh! the link doesn't work. I'll be back.
I'm back. It works if I copy and paste it into the address bar thingummy jig rather than just click on it.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 02:39:21 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #368 on: February 21, 2019, 03:03:47 PM »

Here's the embedded link to the IMSLP page.

For some reason, pasting a direct link seems to miss out the final bracket in the URL.  ???
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #369 on: February 21, 2019, 03:19:46 PM »

[Edit. Ah! It's The Fall Of Paris...Is associated  "A Ciera!" A song of the French revolution....It was reputed to have been sung at the storming of the Bastille...]

...and at the town where Napoleon made his first public declaration as Emperor, after his
escape from Elba - at least if the film 'Waterloo' is to be believed...

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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #370 on: February 21, 2019, 03:27:01 PM »

Thanks Steve

Just for interest, here's Mikie Smythe playing The Downfall of Paris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF8uHVu4Res
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:00:18 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #371 on: February 21, 2019, 03:52:46 PM »

For anyone interested, Aird's Airs are available for free here. They seem to be the source of a number of Buttrey's tunes. It seems likely that he either had access to vol. 6 or to a source that took the tunes from Aird's vol. 6.

https://imslp.org/wiki/A_Selection_of_Scotch,_English,_Irish_and_Foreign_Airs_(Aird,_James)

Argh! the link doesn't work. I'll be back.
I'm back. It works if I copy and paste it into the address bar thingummy jig rather than just click on it.

For those who don't already know, I have a page on Folkopedia that is a list of the whereabouts of known publications, with links to them if available, and links to where/if they've been ABC'd , in the case of Aird it's been done by Jack Campin.
http://folkopedia.efdss.org/wiki/List_of_historical_tunebooks,_some_of_which_are_available_on_the_internet

Julian S

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #372 on: February 22, 2019, 08:36:00 AM »

Don't want to go off topic but...evidently the first manuals on how to play fife and drum were published in 1817 by Samuel Potter - drum major of the Coldstream Guards. Facsimile copies seem to be available on line.
And there is a mention of Potter publishing a book of Waltzes Marches and Quicksteps in 1800 (anyone heard of this?)
Now I'd really like to know what was on the playlist at the famous pre Waterloo ball in Brussels...and who played ! (I gather that the regimental band of the 33rd(which became the Duke of Wellingtons regt) were mostly German during this period and unfortunately had gone back home before the Waterloo campaign.
Research continues...

J
Ps Buttrey was in 34th regiment which eventually became Border regiment which has a regimental museum in Carlisle I believe. They too might well not know about the ms.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #373 on: February 22, 2019, 03:56:41 PM »

1) ...the first manuals on how to play fife and drum were published in 1817 by Samuel Potter...

2) ...Facsimile copies seem to be available on line....And there is a mention of Potter publishing a book
of Waltzes Marches and Quicksteps in 1800 (anyone heard of this?)...

1) Thompson's and Bennett's fife tutors (see below) seem to have been published in 1760
and 1767 respectively? (Or did you mean the first manuals for fife and drum together?)

2) I found this: http://corpsofdrums.com/downloads/ which contains photocopies of several
fife manuals, including Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife (discussed here, and which
I just ABC'd). There is a slightly later Compleat Tutor for the Fife, by Bennett, which contains
~47 tunes - many of which are duplicates of those in Thompson (which contains 85 tunes).
The frontispiece of the Bennett book is a cruder version of the frontispiece in Thompson,
and the music theory in the first few pages looks very similar. Looks like an 18th-century
rip-orf to me guv'nor!

It's perhaps worth noting that Thompson and Bennett are the publishers of these tutors,
not the authors - as far as I can see no author name is given - which makes sense, as they
are (presumably?) compilations of existing tunes.

No sign (so far) of a PD copy of Potter's Waltzes Marches and Quicksteps, though I suspect
that this: https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/28428013?q&versionId=34480778 may well be the
bibliographic information for this book? Interestingly (to a concertina player), the publisher
of this book is Wheatstone. The copyright information gives Potter's date of death as 1809,
whereas other sources indicate 1838. See: https://beafifer.com/potterfife.htm.

Roger
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 05:20:52 PM by Roger Hare »
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Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #374 on: February 22, 2019, 05:47:06 PM »

Greetings to all of you who are so wonderfully working away on the Buttrey manuscript. My name is Ross Flowers. A retired lawyer in Toronto. However my hobby for many years has been as the Drum Major of The Drums Crown Forces, 1812. You can find our site at, drums1812.org. We have been using the Buttrey manuscript for many of our tunes for several years and I’ve had the good fortunate to visit with Sandra Cameron the owner of the manuscript to take photos of the music, some of those photos are what you are working from. I am more than happy to try to answer any of your questions about military music of the British army during the French Revolution/Napoleonic period. The world will be forever in your debt for helping to promote this wonderful collection of music used by the British Army during this period. Slainte
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #375 on: February 22, 2019, 06:41:18 PM »

Welcome aboard Ross!
It's fantastic to think we have people across the pond ready to help us.
No doubt someone will lob a question at you shortly!
Q
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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #376 on: February 22, 2019, 06:48:13 PM »

I stand corrected, Roger, re Potter not being the first to write the manual - I should have dug deeper !
And hi to Ross - I think it's great how this project has developed - the whole story of the Buttrey manuscript is amazing and it's fantastic that some of the tunes are being kept alive and used by yourselves. (I don't know whether Napoleonic period reenactors over here are aware of the source but I for one am spreading the word )

Julian
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #377 on: February 22, 2019, 07:00:29 PM »

1) I stand corrected, Roger, re Potter not being the first to write the manual - I should have dug deeper !...
2) ...it's great how this project has developed - the whole story of the Buttrey manuscript is amazing...
3) ...I don't know whether Napoleonic period reenactors over here are aware of the source but I for one
am spreading the word...

1) Aye, I just wasn't sure whether you were referring to a fife and drum manual - in which
case you may well be correct - some of the references in the corpsofdrums.com list are for
fife and drum manuals...

2) ...and all on a site dedicated to melodeons too  :o ...

3) Moi aussi! I sent a copy of my recent transcription of Thompson to the corpsofdrums, and
the intro page includes pointers to the Buttrey MS.

This is bad - very, very bad - I'm seriously thinking of buying a fife...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 07:05:03 PM by Roger Hare »
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Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #378 on: February 22, 2019, 08:12:31 PM »

Hi Again. Samuel Potter actually wrote 4 booklets/manuals. His first, which I believe has been referred to, was for 'Marches, Waltz's & Quicksteps" produced very early in the 19th century. It is unusual in that the pieces are composed for two fifes and a bugle. He then produced "The Art of Beating the Drum" and "The Art of Playing the Fife". The "system" identified in these manuals was officially adopted by the British Army in 1816 ordered by the Commander in Chief to be purchased and followed in each regiment. Finally he produced a similar book for the bugle. I'm sure this is way more information than you wanted. However I thought you might enjoy the context of Potter as it relates to the Buttrey manuscript. Prior to Potter's books,  there were no official manuals required to be followed throughout the army. While there were similarities in the "signal" there was nothing set down. Consequently, for the "signals" that are included in Buttrey, such as The Troops, Chuch Calls, Reveille's, etc., it really gives an insight into the plethora of music played. In addition the Marches, Quicksteps and dance tunes provide, IMHO, a revelation into the scope of music played in the Napoleonic Army.  Cheers
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #379 on: February 22, 2019, 09:03:05 PM »

Hello Ross, nice to meet you (virtually speaking), I have a question, which has been bugging me a bit.
Am I right in thinking the first lines of some tunes are actually bugle calls?
e.g.,
A Short Troop. #732
Humphriss Troop. #731
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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