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Author Topic: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project  (Read 29611 times)

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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #400 on: March 04, 2019, 09:04:43 PM »

From Chris Partington: "I think it would be a better idea to just attribute VMP in the individual tunes, which I think you had done for some of them, since several hands may add titles. I have no objection to your recognising the transcribers as a group though."

I have therefore updated the Buttrey website so comments made about the tunes are attributed to the "Village Music Project" and on the About page, I had added a list of transcribers in the Village Music Project section near the bottom:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about

If you have not submitted your transcriptions to Chris yet, then I may not know your name. If more names appear, I will add them to the About page. (or you can give me your name)

A huge "Thank you" to all of you for so wholeheartedly jumping in and doing this marvellous work. And a special "Thanks" to Chris for organizing this, adding all your expertise to the transcriptions and allowing this to happen. The world will be a better place for it.

Sandy
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #401 on: March 04, 2019, 09:57:50 PM »

Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html
Looking quickly at Vol 1 and 2, found the following had the same tunes (not identical by any stretch) Others had same name but not same tune. Note how early they appear in the Buttrey ms.
#9  Dusty Miller
#35 Sir Roger De Coverley
#75 Sukey Bids Me
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #402 on: March 04, 2019, 11:46:42 PM »

Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html
Looking quickly at Vol 1 (1751-1757) and 2 (1758-1765), found the following had the same tunes (not identical by any stretch) Others had same name but not same tune. Note how early they appear in the Buttrey ms.
#9  Dusty Miller (vol 2)
#35 Sir Roger De Coverley (vol 2)
#75 Sukey Bids Me (vol 1)
#110 Flowers of Edinburgh (vol 1)
#404 Butter'd Pease (vol 2)
Sorry to confuse everyone, I clicked the wrong link. I was looking at Thompson's "Compleat Collection of 200 Favourite Country Dances" Vols 1 - 4, 1751-80. It's interesting too. Will look at the proper link later.

Back again - just looked at Volumes 3 (1766-1772) and 4 (1773-1780). You may be better at this than me, but I didn't find any tunes with same name and tune as in Buttrey. So speculating again (well it's fun), the original creator of the ms left England before vol 3 and 4 were published? (Note: Someone before Buttrey saw the Battle of St. Kitts (1783) and Battle of the Nile (1798)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 12:08:23 AM by Sandra Cameron »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #403 on: March 05, 2019, 12:17:18 AM »

...So speculating again (well it's fun), the original creator of the ms left England before vol 3 and 4 were published? (Note: Someone before Buttrey saw the Battle of St. Kitts (1783) and Battle of the Nile (1798)

I know that a number of the tunes I transcribed are almost certainly from Aird's Airs vol. 6, published in 1801. These are much later contributions.

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Greg Smith
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Sandra Cameron

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #404 on: March 05, 2019, 12:54:05 AM »

Courtesy of Roger Hare, Thompson's Compleat Tutor for the Fife is now available as ABC and PDF. Important in the story of the Buttrey MS.
http://www.cpartington.plus.com/Links/ChrisPartingtonsLinksPage.html
Looking at the correct ms, I found some that appear Buttrey. Of course, I can only go by tune titles then check to see if they are the same tune. Someone who knows the tunes would know if the Troops and Reveillys match. Here are the named tunes that match:
#14 Grenadier’s March (Buttrey #66)
#28 Scotch Reveille (Buttrey #51)
#45 Prince Eugene’s March (Buttrey #74)
#69 The Hessian Dragoons (Buttrey #71)
#76 The New Coldstream March (Buttrey #684)
Again, mostly at the beginning of the ms.

[Ed. "Same tune" as in the same or similar melody, not as in exact copies.  (Many, many tunes in Buttrey have the same titles as those elsewhere but completely different tunes.]
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 03:48:52 PM by Sandra Cameron »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #405 on: March 05, 2019, 11:29:50 AM »


Looking at the correct ms, I found some that appear Buttrey.
#14 Grenadier’s March (Buttrey #66)
#28 Scotch Reveille (Buttrey #51)
#45 Prince Eugene’s March (Buttrey #74)
#69 The Hessian Dragoons (Buttrey #71)
#76 The New Coldstream March (Buttrey #684)
Again, mostly at the beginning of the ms.

I don't think No. 684 fits the pattern of the earlier tunes. I think it's a direct copy of Aird's vol 6, 1881. No. 166, The Coldstream March.
Two reasons:
1. The title is the same as Aird's (absence of "New")
2. Although the Thompson and Aird's setting have exactly the same notes, the beaming (arrangement of notes on the page) differs. Where there are 4 quavers in a row Thompson beams in groups of four.  Buttrey and Aird's beam in groups of two.

This doesn't affect your theory, though. It just adds more support to the "different authors at different times" theory
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
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The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #406 on: March 05, 2019, 12:41:46 PM »

...Here are the named tunes that match:
...#69 The Hessian Dragoons (Buttrey #71)

It doesn't look to me like Thompson's Tutor is the direct source of this in the Buttrey manuscript, I'm afraid.

There are a number of phrasing marks in Buttrey that are absent in Thompson's. Even more telling is the fact that there are a melodic or rhyhmic variations in nearly every bar.
e.g., cf. Buttrey and Thompson's bar 4.
 
Given the nature of the differences and the fact that they exist in nearly every bar,  I think this seems to come from it being a slightly different setting, not from a copying error.

It's worth noting that later entries that I attribute to being sourced from Aird's are identical in every respect, down to perpetuated unique nuances that don't appear in other publications, though that may just be different approaches from different contributors.

It's possible the the tune was learned from the Fife Tutor and that the variations developed in playing, which is absolutely normal for modern folk musicians, though that may, or may not, have been the case for military musicians in the late 18thC and early 19thC, but I think it's worth looking for  a source that is closer to Buttrey's MS, for it to qualify as the direct source.

I'll take a gander at the other tunes you identify and see if the same thing applies.

[Edit: I've checked the rest and they all differ substantially from the Buttrey notation, I'm afraid.

It's well worth looking at the other available publications for the actual source, though they may have been learned by ear from the playing of the rest of the band, I suppose.]

[Edit: I don't know if Steve D identified any other sources for the tunes he transcribed]
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:38:02 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #407 on: March 05, 2019, 03:30:15 PM »

I have therefore updated the Buttrey website so comments made about the tunes are attributed to the "Village Music Project" and on the About page, I had added a list of transcribers in the Village Music Project section near the bottom:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about

Sandy


I get an error when following this link?
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #408 on: March 05, 2019, 05:02:52 PM »

I have therefore updated the Buttrey website so comments made about the tunes are attributed to the "Village Music Project" and on the About page, I had added a list of transcribers in the Village Music Project section near the bottom:
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about

Sandy
I get error when following this link?
I too get an error, however, after a pause, it then kicks in and displays the appropriate page. I think
http://www.buttreyfifemusic.ca/about may be an 'alias' for the full URL?
I think the full URL is https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/about/.
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Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #409 on: March 07, 2019, 03:33:55 PM »

Regarding a possible relationship between the Buttrey manuscript and Thompson's Tutor, one of the things my group has learned is that a tune with the same name can be arranged differently over time. Also, some tunes can fall out of popularity over time and sometimes be brought back but with a slightly different arrangement. Remember Thompson's appears in 1765 whereas Buttrey is thought to have been created somewhere around the turn of the 19th century. As noted by at least one of your contributors, there are similarities in tunes and arrangements between Buttrey and Aird which are essentially contemporaries of one another. There is also sometimes a difference between British arrangements and American ones of the same tune. For example, Buttrey's tune "A General Toast" appears in several American publications as "Here's to the Maiden of Bashful Fifteen" but with a slightly different rhythm. It has taken us some time but we now try to focus on sources for arrangments that are most contemporary and appropriate for what we do. Hope this helps some.

Ross
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Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #410 on: March 08, 2019, 03:37:02 AM »

Sorry folks I goofed. The General Toast is in Aird, vol 3, not Buttrey
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ChrisP

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #411 on: March 08, 2019, 10:24:06 AM »

When playing for the dance "Buttered Peas" I use the tune "Marmalade Polka". I wonder if "General Toast" would fit in there to complete the theme ? :||:

Ross Flowers

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #412 on: March 08, 2019, 05:47:51 PM »

Could be a fun sett
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #413 on: March 09, 2019, 08:41:01 PM »

When playing for the dance "Buttered Peas" I use the tune "Marmalade Polka". I wonder if "General Toast" would fit in there to complete the theme ? :||:

And Coffee and Tea followed by a sit on the man's knee?
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #414 on: March 09, 2019, 08:53:48 PM »

I was thinking more "tea for two"!
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #415 on: March 11, 2019, 10:38:42 AM »

This is by way of being a (continuing) side-bar to the main thread.

The Greenwood(*) MS was mentioned a short while back:

http://digitalcollections.nyhistory.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A103275#page/1/mode/2up

As far as I can see, this MS has not been ABC'd so far (if you think I am wrong, please let me know where I
can find it - ta!).

On the basis that it hasn't been transcribed before, I have now captured images of this MS and am (slowly)
transcribing it.

The attached image of page 4 shows an example of musical notation which I am not sure about. There is a
vertical line of four dots across the staff in the second line of music, and a similar line of four dots at the very
end (I would expect to see only two dots here if it were an 'ordinary' end-repeat). The only way I can sensibly
interpret this is as meaning everything between the two lines of dots is to be repeated. The only way I can
see how to write this down in ABC is:

Code: [Select]
X:1
T:Come haste to the Wedding, JGrw.05
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:120
K:D
[| A | AFA Aaf | {f/}ede fdB | AFA "^NB1"B/c/dF | EEE E2 A | AFA Aaf |
ede fdB | .AFA "^NB1"B/c/dF | DDD D2 |] |: A | AFA Aaf | ede fdB | AFA
BdF | EEE E2 A | AFA Aaf | ede fdB | AFA faf | ddd d2 |] [| a |
afa afa | bgb bgb | afa agf | eee e3 | a3 g3 |
ede fdB | AFA faf | ddd d2 :|

Any comments, suggestions?

Thank you.

Roger.

(*)Sigh - I never can leave well enough alone...
The potted biography of John Greenwood at the web site cited above mentions that he later became
a dentist in New York.

This URL:

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/05-07-02-0210

is a letter from George Washington to a dentist named - John Greenwood. There appears to be more
correspondence between Washington and Greenwood which I will certainly be looking at later. Is it a
co-incidence? Surely it's the same man? I wonder...
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Pete Dunk

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #416 on: March 11, 2019, 11:04:43 AM »

That’s just an old fashioned way of indicating a standard repeat as far as I am aware.
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Roger Hare

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #417 on: March 11, 2019, 12:19:05 PM »

That’s just an old fashioned way of indicating a standard repeat as far as I am aware.

Thank you sir! That's the 'obvious' interpretation, I just thought it was worth checking.

Roger.
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Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #418 on: March 11, 2019, 02:07:12 PM »

Advice please:
I'm transcribing tune 936 here.....
https://buttreymilitarysocialtunes1800.wordpress.com/melodies/melodies-775-961/

The third line down in the photo shows the end of the A/start of the B music.
Above the first two bars is a tie and underneath the tie, is written something that I read as 'Bis'
Wozzat?
yours
Confused of Devon  ;)
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Thrupenny Bit

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Re: The VMP Buttrey MSS Project
« Reply #419 on: March 11, 2019, 02:10:31 PM »

….and looking further, now I've started to notate, I realise they are 'half bars', i.e. contain half a set of notes I'd expect, if you see what I mean.
Q
even more confused  (:)
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Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!
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