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Author Topic: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?  (Read 1605 times)

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ChrisP

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2018, 12:42:32 PM »

To remove the exclamation marks, assuming you got all the tunes in the same file, open the file in Word and "Find and Replace" with a space. One hit. It will remove all the marks, so keep an eye on the dynamics markings if you have any.

Lester

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2018, 12:55:07 PM »

I'll remove them from all the 200+ Dales tunes I have written out in ABC.


For jobs like this I use a text editor (MS word does it quite well) and do a global replace of, for this example, ! with nothing. Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'. Save loads of time, but alway work on a copy of the file incase something goes wrong.

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2018, 01:29:59 PM »

...Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'.
Unfortunately, EasyABC for Mac seems to insert the spaces before and after barlines by default and I can't find a way of switching the option off. Any ideas please?
Otherwise I just delete the spaces manually, or via the global replace which you've described.
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Lester

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2018, 01:46:38 PM »

Unfortunately, EasyABC for Mac seems to insert the spaces before and after barlines by default and I can't find a way of switching the option off. Any ideas please?


Settings/ABC Type Assistance/Add Bar/Disabled

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2018, 03:04:02 PM »

Thanks, Chris and Lester, for the shortcuts you suggested, which saved a lot of work. Back to transcribing Sepp Fawcett's tunes, hardly any of which he was able to name!
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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2018, 03:09:42 PM »

Unfortunately, EasyABC for Mac seems to insert the spaces before and after barlines by default and I can't find a way of switching the option off. Any ideas please?
Settings/ABC Type Assistance/Add Bar/Disabled
Got it. Thanks, Lester.  (:)
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Roger Hare

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2018, 08:11:14 AM »

Yes, if your tune has ! linebreaks and you start removing them, the display will misbehave until you've removed
them ALL from the tune, at which point it should work again.

Ah! I am having a problem with inconsistent behaviour - lines with a terminating ! appear as 4 bar lines in the
on-screen score (which is what I want), and ?-bar lines in the PDF, and I do have scripts with ! at the end of
some lines and not others (for what I thought were valid reasons- clearly incorrectly). Maybe that's the problem.
Thank you.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2018, 04:54:21 PM »

For jobs like this I use a text editor (MS word does it quite well) and do a global replace of, for this example, ! with nothing. Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'. Save loads of time, but alway work on a copy of the file incase something goes wrong.

If anyone ever does need to fix a whole ABC file, or a folder of 1000 ABC files, in one go and, for some reason, this method lets them down, or they want to do something fancier or apply some universal formatting rules, then I personally would use something called a regex, or a regular expression, to solve the issues in an automated fashion when it isn't so cut and dry as to what the issues actually present themselves as. They are, in simple terms, find/replaces which let you ask the computer to be a bit more fuzzy about what is acceptable. In actual practical terms though, they are often very difficult to understand and write.

Most find/replace systems do not support them, so, you need to use special tools to use these kind of searches, but, if you just need to work on one file, you could paste into and use https://regex101.com/ to perform/test queries and you can get find/replace style behavior by clicking the bottom of the screen where it says 'substitution' to have let you replace text as well, which should save anyone downloading a weird programmer specific text editor, like notepad++, atom or sublime text.

A simple enhancement might be:
Code: [Select]
Find:
!\n
Replace:
\n
As that will only replace ! that occur adjacent to newlines, so, ie at the end of lines, since as noted, they can be used elsewhere sometimes

Also:
Code: [Select]
Find: (note the spaces)
 *\| *
Replace:
|
This will replace any number of spaces before, or after, the | character with a | on its own, rather than just if there's one on either side.

And, for the sake of showing off / completeness
Code: [Select]
Find:
3\/2([._'A-Za-z]+?)\/2*
Replace:
>$1
Appears to automate converting the tune to using > instead of A3/2B/2 as suggested here. Note however that, due to one instance of "f3/2a/ 2", this was skipped over. I could detect and remove the space but a) /2 and / are identical and b) the space is actually used in the formatting to separate the notes. It was placed, in error, before the 2, rather than after it, so, I guess uh:

Code: [Select]
Find:
3\/2([._'A-Za-z]+?)\/([ ]*)2
Replace:
>$1$2

That should work, because I don't believe starting a note with a number of any kind is supported or used, but, if it was, it would be possible for it to malform your file.

Here is the ABC code from the OP post 'treatment':
Code: [Select]
X:20
T:Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe
T:(Septimus Fawcett)
M:4/4
L:1/8
S:Septimus Fawcett
O:Frosterley, Weardale
R:Hornpipe
Z:Boaafb Ellis, 2018
K:D
(3ABc|d>F A>d f>d A>d|f>a d>f d'>b g>b|a>d f>a g>c e>g|
f>B d>f e>A c>e|d>F A>d f>A d>f|a>d f>a d'>f g>b|
a>d f>a g>A B>c|e2[d2f2][d2f2](3ABc|d>F A>d f>A d>f|a>d f>a d'>d g>b|
a>d f>a g>c e>g|f>B d>f e>A c>e|d>F A>d f>A d>f|a>d f>a d'>d g>b|
a>d f>a g>A B>c|e2[d2f2][d2f2]|:a>_b|b>g e>d c>e a>b|
a>f d>B A>F A>f|g>e c>A G>F G>E|D>F A>d f>d d'>c'|(3bag (3fed c>e a>b|
a>f d>B A>F A>f|(3gfe (3dcB A>g e>c|d2[D2d2][D2d2]:|

Now, this produces, in ABC explorer, identical looking results:

but, the midis sound different, so, that's interesting! Comparing the two midis side by side in Musescore demonstrates the difference pretty clearly:

Guess that means somebody perhaps isn't following the ABC spec quite right... Oh, the fun to be had in these threads...

And finally: Always heed Lester's advice, and my advice for that matter, whenever you work in an automated way like this, ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP OR WORK ON A COPY, until you are certain that everything is good, and even after that probably since ABC files are tiny.

edit: I felt I should add, I'm aware that this may seem like it is information that will fly very high, over the top of many heads, the point really is a) to try and make sure people think about what may be possible with a computer and b) in a way, give someone an idea of who they could message for assistance, or what kind of things to ask about, if they ever have some grand undertaking set before them.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 04:57:41 PM by Gena Crisman »
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Roger Hare

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2018, 05:16:55 PM »

1) For jobs like this I use a text editor (MS word does it quite well) and do a global replace of, for this example, ! with nothing. Also use it to remove spaces around barlines, I really don't like them, so replace ' | ' with '|'. Save loads of time, but alway work on a copy of the file incase something goes wrong.

2) ...I personally would use something called a regex, or a regular expression, to solve the issues in an automated fashion...

...you need to use special tools to use these kind of searches...

3) ...the midis sound different...

4) ...ALWAYS KEEP A BACKUP OR WORK ON A COPY...


Right on!!! There do sometimes arise (unfortunately) situations where delving a little deeper into this stuff pays dividends.

1) I use a dedicated text editor - Notepad or one of its slightly more sophisticated derivatives is quite good. (In extremis, I use
a very old but very powerful text-based editor called ECCE - old Edinburgh computer lags will probably remember it with much affection...)


2) There is a utility called 'grepwin' which can do this job available from the PortableApps web site. Named I guess, after the old
Unix utility 'grep'?

3) Just happened to me five minutes ago. To be specific, a perfectly clear, non-controversial bar of music, when written down in
ABC  and played back sounded extremely dodgy. I had to ever-so-slightly re-write that bar... I put it down to some sort of foul-up
within the ABC utility, being not entirely happy with 9/8...

4) Absolutement, mon general!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 05:40:57 PM by lachenal74693 »
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ChrisP

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2018, 05:30:51 PM »



Now, this produces, in ABC explorer, identical looking results:

but, the midis sound different, so, that's interesting! Comparing the two midis side by side in Musescore demonstrates the difference pretty clearly:

Guess that means somebody perhaps isn't following the ABC spec quite right... Oh, the fun to be had in these threads...


edit: I felt I should add, I'm aware that this may seem like it is information that will fly very high, over the top of many heads, the point really is a) to try and make sure people think about what may be possible with a computer and b) in a way, give someone an idea of who they could message for assistance, or what kind of things to ask about, if they ever have some grand undertaking set before them.

That's because the ABC2MIDI program, that produces the sound, has some behaviours built in that the author thought would be useful. Most are, including the > being played as ratio 2:1 rather than 3:1 despite displaying as if it were 3:1. A rather less desirable quirk is its interpreting ALL R:Hornpipes as if they were dotted, even when written even. You have to override this behaviour by prefixing Hornpipe with something, a stop for example R:.Hornpipe
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2018, 06:54:29 PM »

2) There is a utility called 'grepwin' which can do this job available from the PortableApps web site. Named I guess, after the old Unix utility 'grep'?

Grep is hardly an 'old' unix utility, heh! But yes, it is indeed a win32 version grep. I'd still recommend eg notepad++ or sublime etc instead, which can find/replace in files, since I personally find it much easier to test your query/find the results etc, and often regex syntax can be a bit different across some implementations, and, having fancy text editors like that is something I need for work anyway.

That's because the ABC2MIDI program, that produces the sound, has some behaviours built in that the author thought would be useful. Most are, including the > being played as ratio 2:1 rather than 3:1 despite displaying as if it were 3:1. A rather less desirable quirk is its interpreting ALL R:Hornpipes as if they were dotted, even when written even. You have to override this behaviour by prefixing Hornpipe with something, a stop for example R:.Hornpipe

Ah, interesting! Although, on reflection, I think I kinda agree with the abc2midi guy, on both counts. After all, if you put in R:Hornpipe, then surely you're saying it has hornpipe rhythm rather than writing the whole tune out with >s or dotting everything, like, isn't that's kinda the point of of the R command? Bit of a thread drift tho, but, thanks very much for that, though!
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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2018, 07:11:56 PM »

Grep is hardly an 'old' unix utility, heh!

It's been around since the early 1970s. Certainly older than Windows, and might be older than you!
Still in in use, though; maybe that's what you were implying. I last used it, er, a few minutes ago...
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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2018, 08:59:57 PM »


...surely you're saying it has hornpipe rhythm rather than writing the whole tune out with >s or dotting everything, like, isn't that's kinda the point of of the R command? Bit of a thread drift tho, but, thanks very much for that, though!

Sorry if this is extending a thread drift, but I'm not sure there is, really any such thing as "hornpipe" rhythm. Hornpipes are often played in a broken rhythm, but they are often played in "flat" rhythms as well (although, played well, they are anything but flat) and other types of tunes are played dotted, which is, I think, what Chris is complaining about. Tutor sites, etc., sometimes refer to broken rhythm as hornpipe, but that is a very limited perception of what hornpipes are.

Broken rhythm, rather than hornpipe rhythm, would be a more useful specification.

I read somewhere that the tunes were originally modeled on a horse's trot. No idea if that's true.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 09:02:12 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2018, 12:16:28 AM »

There are hornpipes in 3/2 from the 17thC and later, not dotted. The earliest hornpipes in common time that I've come across are from around 1695, which are not dotted. Think Soldier's Joy, Come Ashore Jolly Tar, College Hornpipe etc. The earliest hornpipe that I've ever seen dotted is from circa 1795. It's not that engravers were lazy as there are plenty of other tunes that were written dotted. There are all sorts of hornpipes from the last 350 years, some dotted and some not.

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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2018, 01:14:31 AM »

There are hornpipes in 3/2 from the 17thC and later, not dotted...

Just out of curiosity (I've  wondered since I discovered them), is there a known connection between the earlier 3/2 hornpipes and the 4/4 ones that came after?
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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2018, 06:07:09 AM »

Grep is hardly an 'old' unix utility, heh! But yes, it is indeed a win32 version grep. I'd still recommend eg notepad++ or sublime etc instead, which can find/replace in files, since I personally find it much easier to test your query/find the results etc, and often regex syntax can be a bit different across some implementations, and, having fancy text editors like that is something I need for work anyway.
I should maybe have said "name inspired by the old Unix utility grep". (:)

Yeah - notepad++(*) does it all too. I like grepwin 'cos it seems a bit quicker, and I prefer the interface window  (both very subjective).

(*)Also available from PortableApps.
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Re: Sepp Fawcett's Hornpipe...or is it?
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2018, 11:06:12 AM »

There are hornpipes in 3/2 from the 17thC and later, not dotted...

Just out of curiosity (I've  wondered since I discovered them), is there a known connection between the earlier 3/2 hornpipes and the 4/4 ones that came after?

There doesn't seem to be any link in the sense of many (any?) melodies transferring between 3/2 and common time. When a melody does cross over from 3/2 it generally goes to another triple time signature, like 6/8, 9/8, or 3/4, John of the Green being an example. The link between hornpipe types is in the name, which despite being named for an obsolete wind instrument, refers to *a* dance type.
That in itself is problematic, as back before and into Elizabethan times it referred to a social dance which could be either for a community, a couple, or a solo, in a line, or a circle, with some implication of a showing off element to it. That has continued, and from the 17thC and to the present it has also included Stage Dancing, solo stepping in the pub, and formal competition steps, both clog, hard shoe, sand dance etc. In other words just about everything you can imagine, in every time signature. Really, it is a portmanteau term, and has to be examined as different fashions in different generations, some lingering for a while, and some persisting into the present. The common element is that they are more or less boisterous.
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