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[Stiamh]

In Ireland, there are literally thousands of kids and youngsters (not to mention adults) playing B/C to a very
high standard. And this high standard will be achieved, very often, within months or a few short years.

Clearly that is the case. But those kids and youngsters in Ireland have very important advantages over adult beginners in England or wherever else outside Ireland. One, they are young, and kids can learn things with no bother that are much more challenging for an adult. (Kids can learn to play violin or fiddle to a high standard in a few short years. Adults, by and large, cannot.)

Two, they have access to teachers and plenty of good players around them, which, combined with their youthful brains, leads to the results you speak of.

Whether B/C is really no more difficult than any other two-row system, I can't say for sure, because I didn't start out on it. But I contend that it is, because very few of the tunes people want to play can be played up and down the row. Lack of aptitude may explain many cases of B/C abandonment. Others may be due to underestimating the difficulty and lack of sticking power.

[Pearse Rossa]

... kids can learn things with no bother that are much more challenging for an adult.

That's true up to a point, but it's a generalization.

Lack of aptitude may explain many cases of B/C abandonment. Others may be due to underestimating the difficulty and lack of sticking power.

To learn anything new in life will entail a certain level of difficulty. My point is that B/C is not any more difficult
than other two-row systems for someone who is dedicated and musically talented.

Whether B/C is really no more difficult than any other two-row system, I can't say for sure

I can say for sure that it is not. That has been my experience and the experience of countless others that I know of. I don't mean to be confrontational. I can only give you my take on it.

[richard.fleming]

Maybe BC (and C#/D) is like playing the black and white notes on the piano, and playing 'up and down the row'  (as people tend to express it on this forum) is a bit like playing a piano with only the white notes. Seen like that no-one could be in any doubt that learning BC makes very good sense.

[Winston Smith]

Speaking as the forum simpleton, I cannot see why learning a 2 row instrument should be more difficult than learning any another 2 row instrument.

They're obviously different entities as far as the jump from one row to the other goes, but they're still the same as two 1 rows stuck together! I haven't (yet) found very much use or need for playing across the rows on the 2 row boxes I've had, apart from having the odd note here and there which isn't actually available on 1 row I happen to be playing on. But then, I'm not a highly skilled player, and really have no burning desire to become one.

It would seem to me that one system has the advantage of perhaps having more of these useful extra notes than the other, but that that would depend on what you're playing and in what circumstances.

The same surely applies to playing different key 4th apart boxes? I'm often confused when I hear of people, who would normally play a D/G box, looking for a teacher for G/C or whatever. I believe that the progression of the notes up the scale are the same on any standard layout box, so where's the problem in being able, or not, to play the different 4th apart boxes? It baffles me! (But I don't want to drift the thread!)

[richard.fleming]

Winston - Semi-tone apart boxes (B/C, C#/D etc) are quite different from, for example D/G. On D/G you play D on one row or G on the other. It is pretty much like having two one-rows stuck together. On semi-tone apart boxes you base yourself, as it were, on one row, usually the inside row, and stray onto the other  row  from time to time to get the notes you need to play in a particular key. On the BC you are based on the C row so you can make comparisons with the piano -  one row being the white notes on the piano and the other row being the black notes. C#/D is similar in principle, but being based on the D row means some tunes (eg those in D) can be played with much the same fingering as on a D/G box, but all other keys, modes etc will require some notes from the other row.

[Neil]

To learn anything new in life will entail a certain level of difficulty. My point is that B/C is not any more difficult
than other two-row systems for someone who is dedicated and musically talented.

Lots of interesting comment since I started this thread, but this comment from Pearse Rossa seems to sum things up nicely.

I did my research before choosing B/C, I play Scottish and Irish music, and I am ready to put the hours in to get as good as I can. I will not get as good as I am on other instruments that I have played for 40 odd years because there isn't that amount of time left to me, and my digits are not as dextrous as once they were. But I will have fun trying, and thanks to all for the helpful and supportive comments.

[Winston Smith]

Haha, that's what I thought I was saying!

In short, they're only different in that the 2nd (either inside or outside) row notes are a different, different key, whichever way you play them?

As for playing either on the D or G row, surely the same principle applies, either on the B or the C row. I usually get away with my G 1 row with the vast majority of tunes played at our little NE Group, as mostly (or so it seems) D/G boxes are played on the G row, same as B/C are on the C row.

I still cannot fathom what is more difficult about learning to play with a different set of alternate notes on the 2nd row?

[Lester]

As for playing either on the D or G row, surely the same principle applies, either on the B or the C row.

But few if any tunes are played in B or C. So to play in say G you need to play mostly on the C row but to find the F# on the B row, then to play in D you need to find the F# and C# from the B row. Unlike a D/G when once you have learned a tune in G you can play it in G by just w=switching rows in a B/C the fingering is entirely different.

[Barlow]

As a learner, I am now finding that there is a nice range of ornamentation available playing a B/C that would be difficult/impossible on a D/G.

[Winston Smith]

But, Lester, would it be any easier playing in G on an F/Bb box then? (I use this example as I've just seen one on Theo's site.) Or an A/D perhaps? Surely all boxes have their own limitations as to what keys are possible, or easy, to play in? Who would choose a box with which it was more difficult than necessary to play one's usual choice of music?

Of course, playing mostly by myself, it doesn't really matter in which key I play. (And this most likely skews my opinions, and possibly enhances my ignorance, about the matter in hand.)

[richard.fleming]

But few if any tunes are played in B or C. So to play in say G you need to play mostly on the C row but to find the F# on the B row, then to play in D you need to find the F# and C# from the B row. Unlike a D/G when once you have learned a tune in G you can play it in G (sic) by just w=switching rows in a B/C the fingering is entirely different.

So every key has a slightly different fingering on a semi-tone box, just as you would expect on almost any musical instrument. The quote above about the ease with which you can play D and G with the same fingering on a DG box also implies why you can't really play any other keys on them. (Or not much or not many - to forestall any objectors)

[Stiamh]

Winston please ask someone knowledgeable to take you aside off the forum and show you how semitone boxes work. Then perhaps you won't feel the need to clutter up threads about semitone boxes (because you do this pretty regularly) with your pleas for understanding and the good answers that you get but which apparently do no good.

I'd be happy to do this, over as many cups of tea as it would take, but I'm a little far away. 

[Barlow]

I hope I am not speaking out of turn when I suggest a phrase starting:

"All the tea in China......"

 

[Pearse Rossa]

Surely all boxes have their own limitations as to what keys are possible, or easy, to play in?

We are discussing B/C and that is the essence of the system; all the keys you will need are there in front
of your eyes, or under your fingers.
I do take Steve's point though. Of course some learners, depending on their circumstances, will find B/C more challenging.
It must be something in the Irish water. We don't have any of those major hang-ups about it.

I hear the kettle boiling; time for another cup of tea!

[Pearse Rossa]

.. kids and youngsters in Ireland have very important advantages over adult beginners in England or wherever else outside Ireland.

True.

they have access to teachers and plenty of good players around them, which, combined with their youthful brains, leads to the results you speak of

Also true.

[Winston Smith]

"Then perhaps you won't feel the need to clutter up threads about semitone boxes (because you do this pretty regularly) with your pleas for understanding and the good answers that you get but which apparently do no good."

Message received and understood! Sorry.

[Pearse Rossa]

.. I could ask those beginner questions - things about posture/holding the beast, managing the air button, getting the brain to realise that pushing is not pulling and vice-versa...

Most of us never asked anybody anything. We learned by watching and listening to others.
I would recommend that you do the same. You will learn an awful lot more through observation.
Asking a question such as 'how do I hold it', will elicit as many answers as there are brands of tea!
Just watch an expert and learn from them.
If I knew what type of music you are playing, I could point out some really good YouTube videos.

It does cost a bit...but I highly recommend the Online Irish Academy of Music, esp for beginners. See here: https://www.oaim.ie
You get video tutorials etc. Even if you just buy a month or two it’s worth it to get going.

Sound advice. I've never used it myself, but as I understand it, there is some basic tuition that is free
before you move on to the heavy-duty stuff that you have to pay for.

[Lester]

Most of us never asked anybody anything. We learned by watching and listening to others.

Citation needed, every box player I know have asked all and sundry for hints and tips. Not asking seems a good way to not learn

I would recommend that you do the same. You will learn an awful lot more through observation.

True but not to the exclusion of other learning opportunities

Asking a question such as 'how do I hold it', will elicit as many answers as there are brands of tea!
Just watch an expert and learn from them.

Watching an 'expert' will teach you how they do things but since there are many 'experts' who have differing methods of achieving their 'expertness', so ask for help, observe for help, try your own way, find out what works for you.

If I knew what type of music you are playing, I could point out some really good YouTube videos.

As the question is about a semitone box I would opine that Irish Trad is the desired genre.

[Gromit]

Irish and Scottish I believe he said.

[Pearse Rossa]

Most of us never asked anybody anything. We learned by watching and listening to others.

Citation needed, every box player I know have asked all and sundry for hints and tips. Not asking seems a good way to not learn

When I say 'most of us' I mean most of us Irish box players. We tend to talk less and play more.
I have asked plenty questions myself about makes, models, maintenance, repairs etc, and gratefully received answers.
I have learned loads through the forum and elsewhere, but when it comes to improving one's playing,
I believe that keeping your eyes and ears open will stand you in good stead.

there are many 'experts' who have differing methods of achieving their 'expertness', so ask for help, observe for help, try your own way, find out what works for you.

I agree.

As the question is about a semitone box I would opine that Irish Trad is the desired genre

It doesn't necessarily follow, but besides, I wanted to know specifically what the OP is interested in.
Irish box playing covers a broad spectrum (Irish trad is only a sub-species of the genre), and this is
what I was getting at here.