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Author Topic: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?  (Read 1846 times)

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butimba

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Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« on: December 22, 2018, 09:55:49 PM »

Hi all,

I'd really appreciate it if anyone can take a look at this layout and tell me if it looks sensible or not. It's a D/G/acc layout I've come up with for a Castagnari Mas (where the inner row on the bass end has to be bass notes only). It's more or less a cross between my 2.5 row Beltuna layout and Pascale Ruben's Mas layout. Before I spend a LOT of money on a new box it would be great to get some feedback!

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/112OFhzaM__tB8GSORJ2bqYkxYrJ4hZfc-wrbCZDbS50/edit?usp=sharing

(NB notes in blue are different to my current layout. Also I've controversially gone for a 6th button start.)
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Theo

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2018, 11:25:55 PM »

I’m not very good at analysing layouts, because so much depends on how you plan to use it, but is that really meant to be a C natural on button 5 on the D row?
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2018, 01:31:29 AM »

I agree with Theo about the C on button 5 on the D-row. I think it should be C# and expect this is a case of just a typo.

At first I was sceptical about the 'Dutch reversal' E/D on G-row button button 8, but it makes more sense now, as I see you also have a push E on G-row buttons 2 and 5. Perhaps you anticipate a playing style which favours E-minor a lot.

Personally I would miss the push Ds on the G-row, but that's because my own playing style oftem makes use of RH octave chords. On my 2.5 row Mory my E/D Dutch reversal is on the half-row adjacent to the conventional D/E on the G-row. I like the flexibility of having both options.

What about the blank push notes on button 1 on both rows?

Overall, and as I also know you are a very fine player, I guess you have put a lot of thought into the layout already to come up with something which suits you, so if that's the case, go with it!

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butimba

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2018, 10:08:15 AM »

Steve and Theo, thanks very much for taking a look.

The C actually isn't a typo - as I seem to use my low C quite a bit more than C# I decided to put the C somewhere more accessible, then the C# is on the inner row. I'm hoping this works in practice.

I think the Dutch reversal will take some getting used to (my layout is currently like your Mory Steve, which I like a lot) - but I want to make Dm and Gm easier, so this allows Eb, F and Bb both ways. Although point taken about the RH chords, which I use a lot as well.

Thanks Steve for your reassurance! It's hard to tell if it'll fit under the fingers well, which is the main thing I'm worried about. A Streb would really come in handy at this point. 
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2018, 10:40:37 AM »

Steve and Theo, thanks very much for taking a look.

The C actually isn't a typo - as I seem to use my low C quite a bit more than C# I decided to put the C somewhere more accessible, then the C# is on the inner row. I'm hoping this works in practice.

I think the Dutch reversal will take some getting used to (my layout is currently like your Mory Steve, which I like a lot) - but I want to make Dm and Gm easier, so this allows Eb, F and Bb both ways. Although point taken about the RH chords, which I use a lot as well.

Thanks Steve for your reassurance! It's hard to tell if it'll fit under the fingers well, which is the main thing I'm worried about. A Streb would really come in handy at this point.
The C# looks a long way away.
I think I'm going to ask for a few more buttons for Christmas. I'd like an accidentals row to try all this out.
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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2018, 12:00:25 PM »

I think I can see what you are trying to achieve but, as others have said, I think you might regret not having a C#4 on the outer row. If it were me, I'd put a C#4 on the outer row and move the C4 onto the middle row in place of the pulled B3, which could move onto the inner row in place of the pulled C#4, which you would no longer need there.

Deciding on a new layout is difficult when you can't practice the fingering patterns until you have spent a lot of money on a new box, by which time it is a bit late to discover mistakes. One way round this that I have used in the past is to print out the proposed layout on self-adhesive paper and then cut out the roundel for each button and stick it on a three-row box you already own. Try playing tunes by pressing the appropriate buttons but with the bellows firmly closed (otherwise the discordant sounds will distract and repel you!) The roundels are easily peeled off the buttons to be placed in other positions or to be discarded when you have finished with them. It isn't perfect, but this method helped me decide which fingering patterns worked and which ones didn't.
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Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Rayner

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2018, 01:55:30 PM »

Surely the instrument ideal for these experiments is a streb?  Mine’s on order.
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Bob Ellis

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2018, 02:13:39 PM »

So's mine. In fact, Steve came up to see me last weekend.

Butimba's last post suggests recognition of the value of a Streb for this kind of layout design, but implies lack of access to one. Hence my low-tech alternative suggestion, which worked well for me.
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

Chris Rayner

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2018, 06:04:59 PM »

Butimba's last post suggests recognition of the value of a Streb for this kind of layout design, but implies lack of access to one. Hence my low-tech alternative suggestion, which worked well for me.
Ah!  So it does.  Me pore ole brain.👴🏼☹️
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Elderly amateur musician hoping to stave off dementia by learning to play the melodeon.  Main instrument a Tommy, also D/G and G/C pokerworks,  a single row 2 stop Hohner, and a new addition to the free reedery, a rather splendid Paolo Soprani four voice 120 bass c-system chromatic button accordion.  Very shiny, very loud, and about the same size and weight as a small car.  Now I’ve traded me Benny with (ahem) a cash adjustment, to a three voice 60 bass Castagnari K3.

Eshed

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2018, 06:10:02 PM »

So's mine. In fact, Steve came up to see me last weekend.

Butimba's last post suggests recognition of the value of a Streb for this kind of layout design, but implies lack of access to one. Hence my low-tech alternative suggestion, which worked well for me.

The problem is that the Streb is meant for actual playing and not just prototyping hence its price and limited availability. If just prototyping is needed one can go for something like this project (melodeonised electrified toy accordion) which would be way cheaper/useful. It's somewhere in the growing queue of things I should do.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 06:15:29 PM by Eshed »
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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2018, 10:53:08 PM »

I agree about the Streb being primarily for playing - that's why I ordered mine - but if you have one you can also use it for prototyping!
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Bob in beautiful Wensleydale, Les Panards Dansants, Crook Morris and the Loose Knit Band.
Clément Guais 3-row D/G/acc.; Castagnari 1914 D/G; Karntnerland Steirische 3-row G/C/F; Ellis Pariselle 2.6-row D/G/acc.; Gabbanelli Compact 2-row D/G with lots of bling, pre-war Hohner Bb/F; Acadian one-row in D.

butimba

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 03:06:53 PM »

I think I can see what you are trying to achieve but, as others have said, I think you might regret not having a C#4 on the outer row. If it were me, I'd put a C#4 on the outer row and move the C4 onto the middle row in place of the pulled B3, which could move onto the inner row in place of the pulled C#4, which you would no longer need there.

Deciding on a new layout is difficult when you can't practice the fingering patterns until you have spent a lot of money on a new box, by which time it is a bit late to discover mistakes. One way round this that I have used in the past is to print out the proposed layout on self-adhesive paper and then cut out the roundel for each button and stick it on a three-row box you already own. Try playing tunes by pressing the appropriate buttons but with the bellows firmly closed (otherwise the discordant sounds will distract and repel you!) The roundels are easily peeled off the buttons to be placed in other positions or to be discarded when you have finished with them. It isn't perfect, but this method helped me decide which fingering patterns worked and which ones didn't.


Bob, thanks for your suggestions. Just finished putting sticky dots on my keyboard - hopefully this'll help a bit. Nice idea! I'll have another think about the C# as well.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2018, 02:41:50 PM »

As always "it depends what you want to play", but having laid out several boxes in my time, it breaks some of my own empirically developed rules.

Generally people go towards chromatic either to play in different diatonic keys, or more complex scales, be that jazzy melodic minor modes, blues, whatever. I also suspect you may be well beyond going push pull up and down rows too. Well, the best way to express these is as a  piste, line of notes running on and about the 3 rows, and that can go strange ways unless you get a CBA. Basically the "logic" of the D and G rows is very strong, and fights against more exotic keys … while making play in D, G and their modes very easy 😉  Commonly pistes are on the pull

Music is also very much structured in chords (which is why our left end works so well). So my advice is to think hard as to what keys you want to express, and to make sure that you can play their main right end chords on your layout. For a simple major that's chords: I, ii (dorian mode) IV, V(ideally its 4-note 7 eg G7) and iv (relative minor).

Chords iii and vii (Em and Bmb7 in C) are less important unless you like jazz. eg the standard ii-V-i in Am would need Bm and E7 playable. The notes between the chords notes are less important when it comes to play. They might be there on other row, or accs if you are lucky, but if "wrong way" then you can usually express them with a bellows flick.

A nice workaround is that with a chromatic base the tonic matters less. ie "in play" you express tonic of the chord in play on left, and its 3,5,7 and any extend notes right end. Sounds a cheat, and it is, but melodeons get away with such things?

I've written a web page for checking out "off piste" chords and scales at https://chrisryall.net/chords/ You basically type your layout into the lower box and press [!!] to make a simulation.  It plays notes too, but you have to invest in voicing the octaves 😕

My own experince is that the most useful accs rows tend to be either 1, or 6 semitones away from your main rows. That maximises "out" notes and also offers some structure in itself with the odd nice surprise.

I eventually settled on a C#DG basis and love it. My "accs" is C# and  has many "hits" as per above, being 1 semitone flat of D and a tritone away from G?

There will then always be duplication with one or other main row, in my case it's 2 Cs and 2F#s on the pull. I simply filed these to useful C# and F pull notes. It makes playing in C# non trivial, but who cares about that? My "surprise" was that the resultant box goes like the wind in Bb, be that major, minor, bebop or blues! Nice if your play with wind instruments.

My only unisonoric is F. It is very useful playing in C or Cm with pull 4th note, and a push G7 dominant chords available for both. Otherwise non useful unless you lake drone affect (can to that left end?) So if you want to play in D keys a G unisonoric might be hands. Eb is usful for Ab play … do you play in Ab?

So 1. think on what you want to play 2. Think in chords 3. Experiment or simulate. There is no "way that is right for everyone". Happy New Year …
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:50:00 PM by Chris Ryall »
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DaveW

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2018, 06:16:52 PM »

Surely the instrument ideal for these experiments is a streb?  Mine’s on order.
An FR_18 Roland would allows you to try out as many melodeon layouts as there are in this galaxy. Analysing the results could take all of 2019. I am stil workingl on the problem, since 2011. The wisdom of age tells me that time spent playing is more rewarding
Happy new year to all. DaveW
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squeezy

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2019, 12:39:27 AM »

I've just had a quick think about playing this and although I won't say that anything is wrong (because we're all different players who all have different brains and different needs) ... but I note that you've gone for a 6th button start for a D/G ... while that makes a lot of sense in eliminating the squeakiness of the normal D/G range, I have to wonder why you haven't gone for a low D/G layout with the first lower octave having the regular fingering beginning on button 3.  The reason I say this is that I have tried a lot of systems which deviate from the 7 note repeating sequence of the diatonic scale and I have always found them much harder to learn (this doesn't matter whether your preference is for the dutch reversal or not ... both are equally valid) - your system has almost no logic to the lower G (and D) octaves with all the substituted notes and that will will make playing down there a whole new learning experience!  Also - right hand chord shapes learnt in the main octave will not be transferrable to other octaves at all because of the irregularity.

The helper row on the inside makes some sense in having so many buttons which play the same note in and out, and may well be ideal for what you wish to play, but again it doesn't follow the 7 note repeating pattern which is at the core of the diatonic system - meaning the relationship between notes on the main rows and the helper row change over different octaves.  This makes for extra effort of learning when playing tunes in different octaves.

As I say - we're all different ... and I may be missing some well thought out benefits you are envisaging when designing the layout ... but I have tried a lot of different layouts and those are my initial thoughts.
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Squeezy

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squeezy

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Re: Does this D/G/acc layout look sensible?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2019, 12:49:02 AM »

Have a look at the attached file for a similar layout (5th button start) that I now use which tweaks the notes in the lower octave to give some extra options ... but keeps a great deal of the regular melodeon scale intact ... I find this made learning the system much easier than if it were completely changed (it also makes a lot of the first lower octave the same fingering as the regular D/G octave)

It works for me.  As I said before ... I may be barking up the wrong tree and this won't work for you ... but it's worth having a look before commissioning an instrument.
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Squeezy

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