Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay  (Read 1682 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Blake

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« on: December 25, 2018, 11:54:21 PM »

I have a moderate/severe hearing loss that is, for most purposes, corrected effectively. With slightly perforated domes on my aids, I receive some sound from the environment directly, and some from the aid.

Unfortunately, correction for my melodeon and concertina playing is awful. The tone sounds wretchedly reedy.

This is my theory and what I've done to explore it.

The wave form of a reed-generated sound has a distinctive, steep sided peak- that makes it sound, well, reedy:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.3563819

I think what is happening is that with the aids is that I am getting that steep slap of the reed once through the environment, and again with a processing delay through the aid, making it sounds over the top reedy. Here's an article about processing delay in hearing aids. http://www.hearingreview.com/2010/01/acceptable-processing-delay-in-digital-hearing-aids/

To test, I observed the sound of my Castagnari Benny and my Morse E.C. without aids. They are deliciously soft and mellow. (I have a mid and high end hearing loss). With the perforated domes, it's nasty brash and whiny on both instruments. With closed domes that minimize the sound from the environment, they sounds like what I would expect a free reed to sound like.

Has anyone else experienced this? Do analog aids have a similar delay? How do you remedy it?

Attached image is a screen grab of an accordion reed sounded in a laboratory environment.



« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:37:41 AM by Blake »
Logged
Morse Baritone EC
Castagnari Benny G/C/#
Castagnary Mory D/G/#

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2009
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2018, 12:11:33 AM »

Although your technobabble is beyond my current level of understanding, I'm rather interested in this. I, too, have high to middle range hearing loss, corrected by digital aids, and am often plagued by "wrong" noises.

I've mentioned this to the girl child who looks after my hearing at the local NHS hospital, but didn't get a satisfactory answer. (Didn't actually expect one, either!)

The closed mushroom ends sound like a possibility. Please keep it coming?   
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Pete Dunk

  • Typo Expert
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3154
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2018, 12:29:28 AM »

I have acute hearing loss resulting in a 'bandpass' filter effect which means that all of the higher and lower frequencies are inaudible to me. It limits my capabilities as a musician. I feel for you!
Logged
Squeezing on the Isle of Oxney, UK
Primo D/G, Albrecht Custom Liliput D/G
Hohner B/E, B/C, C/F, Bb/Eb
Liliputs D/G G scale, C/F, Bb/Eb

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4918
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2018, 12:35:53 AM »

I'm not sure what you mean by 'acoustic aids', but the linked article correctly says that digital aids have a delay, while analogue aids don't (more or less).
I'm not sure that the mixing of direct and delayed sound would produce the harshness you describe. As you have medium and high frequency loss, these frequencies are being boosted by your hearing aid: those frequencies are quite strong from a free reed instrument (more than from human speech) so your hearing aid my be overloading and distorting.

Is it the same sound if you play quietly, or get someone else to play and listen from further away?

To test, I observed the sound of my Castagnari Benny and my Morse E.C. without aids. They are deliciously soft and mellow.

Could that be a clue to the solution? switch them off while you're playing...
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh bands: www.fourhandband.co.uk www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Blake

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 12:37:21 AM »

I'm not sure what you mean by 'acoustic aids'...

Could that be a clue to the solution? switch them off while you're playing...

I meant analog aids. :) I'll correct the original post.
Yes, I think that's what i'll have to do!

It's the same loud and soft, I am not sure far away or not. I'll have someone squeeze it for me and see. :)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:41:10 AM by Blake »
Logged
Morse Baritone EC
Castagnari Benny G/C/#
Castagnary Mory D/G/#

howard mitchell

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 317
    • Howard Mitchell
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 09:21:37 AM »

I have severe hearing loss below 1.5kHz in my right ear and I hear higher frequencies distorted.
My left ear is pretty normal. So I have a CROS aid which picks up on the right (along with a custom plug which stops any sound getting into my right ear) and transmits it to a receiver in my left ear which has an open dome to allow normal sound in as well.

In the “normal” setting which the audiometrist set up, there is some high frequency boost which helps with intelligibility but leads to harsh sound from free reeds. It is also possible to push both the transmitter or receiver into clipping which is not nice. I’ve also detected aliasing where the higher harmonics of the free reed are wrongly interpreted as lower frequencies. I think that the designers forgot about anything over 8kHz.

I reported all of this to the audiometrist (she didn’t know what aliasing was) and she added a number of other programmes to my devices. A “flat” programme which gives a much better sound, a “live music” programme which is better at high volumes, a “recorded music” programme and a “musician” programme which changes the spacial pickup so that I can hear other musicians around me not just focussing on sounds from in front.

She got a technician from Siemens to visit and help set up these special settings.

The settings are also adjustable from an app so I can, for example, adjust the treble and bass.

It’s not perfect but has allowed to hear myself when playing in sessions and not be overcome by distortion.

I hope this help, every case is different.

Mitch

« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 01:21:11 PM by Howard Mitchell-Borts (Mitch) »
Logged
Saltarelle D/G, Hohner D/G, Hohner C/F, Dallape C/F, Hohner A/D, Gaillard G/C, Sagne D, Roland FR18D, Hohner Bb/Eb.

syale

  • The Terrier
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 707
  • When will this MADness stop?
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 02:01:38 PM »

I reported all of this to the audiometrist (she didn’t know what aliasing was)

Mitch

Never knew about it, this video is good at explaining it; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVhNhi76Qk
Logged
HA114 C/G/A/D, 2915 G/C. Liliput, Club IIB C/F Dino Baffetti Modell 22 B Twitter: @syale

David A

  • Good talker
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 83
  • Serenellini Lady D/G
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2018, 03:06:36 PM »

I have lost 80% of my high frequency hearing tapering down to 20% for low frequencies. I have a pair of Siemens digital hearing aids provided by the NHS and a pair of Unitron aids that I bought from a private audiologist. The (NHS) Siemens ones are fine for understanding speech but sound a bit strange and do not perform well in crowded places. I tend to wear them only for outdoor (non-musical) activities.
It took a long time to find the best (for me) aids and I tried ones from several manufacturers and several audiologists. Fortunately I was able to make use of free trial periods so I spent about a year testing without any expenditure. Eventually I found an audiologist who was also a musician and he got me to take my melodeon along to his surgery so that he could fine tune the aids to give me the sound I expected and liked. I also take singing lessons and sought my singing teacher’s views on the accuracy of my pitching for each pair of aids. Fortunately the Unitron aids gave me the sound I liked best and the most accurate voice pitching. So I bit the bullet and paid the £3,000 cost. 18 months on I’m still happy with them.
Logged

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2009
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2018, 03:24:32 PM »

"so that he could fine tune the aids to give me the sound I expected and liked"

Wow! What a pity we couldn't persuade our listeners to undergo this treatment.
Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4682
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2018, 09:41:12 PM »

I have lost my top frequencies and so have a moderate hearing loss, more than I should do for someone my age. I attribute this to seeing ever rock band possible  when they toured and went to our local university.  As I worked there I could always get a ticket!

About 18 months ago I was finally persuaded to get my hearing checked. I was fitted with Phonak digital hearing aids and canal fitting cones from the NHS.
When turned on the default setting 0, is where my hearing 'should' be. I could turn it up +5 steps or down - 5 steps.
At 0 setting I found it slightly tinny and got into the habit of turning it down 2 steps.
If playing box I'd turn it down again to the lowest setting, -5 steps.
After ~ 9 months I went to get them tweaked. The first attempt was way off and I returned again. In the end the person simply went on my perception of 'normal' speech by just talking to me and asking how it sounded and adjusting the aids.
I have no idea  what or how they adjusted it in technical terms, simply in the end it went on what peach sounded 'right' to me.
I now find I simply turn them on and leave them, and do not touch them even if playing melodeon. I think I might have lost some volume from the original setting, my wife thins the tv is slighlty louder again, but to me everything sounds 'normal - whatever that is!

Perhaps before getting too involved in technicalities, is it too simplistic to suggest seeing if adjustments to the aids will help?
I wish you luck, as I now realise it is a very personal thing and you want it to be right for you.
best wishes
Q

Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Blake

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 06:59:51 PM »

The closed mushroom ends sound like a possibility. Please keep it coming?

Yep. I've tried those, and they are much better than the open domes, except the sweaty ear canal issue!
Logged
Morse Baritone EC
Castagnari Benny G/C/#
Castagnary Mory D/G/#

Blake

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 07:00:54 PM »

I have acute hearing loss resulting in a 'bandpass' filter effect which means that all of the higher and lower frequencies are inaudible to me. It limits my capabilities as a musician. I feel for you!
I ended up playing the free reed boxes because I couldn't hear my cello well enough to play in tune. I'm quite happy with the change...
Logged
Morse Baritone EC
Castagnari Benny G/C/#
Castagnary Mory D/G/#

Blake

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 07:05:19 PM »


In the “normal” setting which the audiometrist set up, there is some high frequency boost which helps with intelligibility but leads to harsh sound from free reeds. It is also possible to push both the transmitter or receiver into clipping which is not nice. I’ve also detected aliasing where the higher harmonics of the free reed are wrongly interpreted as lower frequencies. I think that the designers forgot about anything over 8kHz.


Thank you Mitch. This does sound similar to what I am experiencing. I think the designers forget about anyone that isn't just sitting across the table in an average sized audiology room vocalizing random words.  I have senior bird watching friends and they go to great ends to get aids that help them hear those tweets, twits, and chirps. The human ear is really quite amazing, and I'm only really learning this as parts of my world go silent.
Logged
Morse Baritone EC
Castagnari Benny G/C/#
Castagnary Mory D/G/#

Peter Morris

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 28
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2018, 06:30:39 PM »

Thanks everyone for this article, the submissions are very interesting to read, I too have hearing loss at the top end, I hear the lower frequencies very well (the bass, perhaps that's why I like the left side of my Benny).

Referrring to "but to me everything sounds 'normal - whatever that is!" from a previous contributor seems to me the important question. I suppose everyone hears the box differently depending on their hearing ability, so it is probably very difiicult to say what a Benny should sound like. To me with the aids it sounds a tad tinny but louder whereas without the aids it sounds warm but muted, or is warm naturally muted because I have good hearing in the lower frequencies ?

With my NHS aids all I can do is increase or decrease the sound so achieving a "warmer" sound from the Benny is beyond my control.

I like the idea of taking the box with me to the next review rather than a friend/wife so I can have the aids altered to suit what I think the Benny should sound like.

First though I am going to record myself playing a tune or two then see if there is an app I can download to alter the output so I can find my personal preference, any ideas on apps anyone.

Once again many thanks for this article, I apologise I only have questions not any answers.

Cheers

Logged

Thrupenny Bit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4682
  • happily squeezing away in Devon
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2018, 10:24:32 AM »

Peter, 'twas I that mentioned 'normal'.
I too can only adjust volume, though mine are no longer linked. I can individually adjust each aid should I need to, as the problem that prompted me to go for a check-up was a lower perceived volume in one ear. I think the conclusion was my larger ear canal on this side possibly not sealing on the largest sized cone properly. Something I've come to accept.
I managed through discussing things with the technician and then a trial and error session to get her to change the settings to loose the tinny/echo-ey sound on voice. 
She simply talked to me, tweaked, talked more etc until I thought it sounded normal to me.
I then went home and played, accepting that if a voice sounded normal, my melodeon would hopefully sound roughly the same. Luckily it was.

It seemed to work for me, but as we've said, everyone's perception of 'normal' is different, as is ( and possibly more relevant ) everyone's type of hearing loss.
good luck with it!
cheers
Q
Logged
Thrupenny Bit

I think I'm starting to get most of the notes in roughly the right order...... sometimes!

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 786
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2019, 11:55:44 AM »

I have some high-frequency hearing loss, partly due to age and partly no doubt from more than 30 years' of gigging with PA.

My quick-and-dirty solution to this is to remove one aid when I am playing music. This partially muffles the higher frequencies which can make the melodeon and concertina in particular sound so harsh and scratchy, while still giving my hearing enough boost to hear what others are saying.  It's not perfect, but I'm learning that with hearing aids (which are primarily intended to improve clarity of speech) listening to and playing music involves some compromises.

Lester

  • MADman
  • Mods and volunteers
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7905
  • Hohners'R'me
    • Lester's Melodeon Emporium and Tune-a-Rama
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2019, 12:04:19 PM »

When the Sainted Mrs Bailey played her hammer dulcimer before her hearing got so bad it was too much hard work she used the following setup.
One hearing aid on normal setting to hear the rest of the musicians etc and the other on t loop being driven from a pickup and small amp from the dulcimer, the amp had an earphone outlet which drove a small t loop wire which she hooked behind the dulcimer ear. Worked well for a number of years.

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 786
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2019, 06:38:30 PM »

I've been using in-ear monitoring on stage for a while. Or rather just-off-the-ear: I've been using bone-conduction earphones rather than the in-ear type as this also allows me to communicate with the rest of the band.  They work fine, but can be a bit uncomfortable and tend to run out of battery charge halfway through a gig.  I'm now hoping to use my hearing aids as monitors, as I have direct input shoes  which allow a headphone cable to be attached.  There was a problem with the settings, which I hope the audiologist was able to fix when I saw her this morning - I'll find out at Saturday's gig if they now work properly.

As a dulcimer player myself I can see the advantages of having a personal foldback system, as even with good hearing it can be hard to hear the instrument. 

Howard Jones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 786
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2019, 11:17:25 AM »

It's taken 6 months and 3 different NHS audiologists to sort out the teething troubles, but I can now report that my hearing aids with direct input shoes work brilliantly as in-ear monitors when performing on stage.  These connect to a wireless pack on my belt, and the band has a digital mixer so I can remotely control my personal feedback mix and volume, which helps.  The program appears to be set up for music and the external mics are turned off, which makes it a little harder to hear conversations but my hearing is adequate to pick up communications while playing , and I can always switch to speech mode if we need to have a proper discussion between sets.

This doesn't help with playing at home or in sessions where it's often not practical to set up a personal foldback, although if you are experiencing serious difficulties it is worth considering, as Lester's wife found with her dulcimer.  Neither does it help with listening to music, whether live or recorded, unless I use the HAs as headphones.  But it's solved one of my problems.

Peter Morris

  • Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 28
Re: Digital Hearing aids, free reed wave pattern, sound delay
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2019, 04:25:02 PM »

Hi Thupenny bit and Howard, I've held off replying until after last night's music session, I tried one hearing aid, both hearing aids and none, main problem which the hearing aid can't help is I can't hear my Benny too well in a session as everyone else plays at the same time, so switching between one or none or two didn't help that, though using one only did cut down the higher frequencies (the squeaky bits). Another solution was to play in C (it's a Bob Ellis layout) but that wasn't popular with the other box players thought the uke and guitar players liked the change.

I'll wait for the check up and see if I can get the frequency tweaked a bit. I don't do any serious playing with PA so any investment in technical gear wouldn't be worth it.

Cheers
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.