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Author Topic: Table Build  (Read 2185 times)

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Pat McInnis

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Table Build
« on: January 15, 2019, 05:30:39 AM »

So I'm starting to get my tuning table together and have a few questions. I plan on mounting the table to the steel cleats at the end of the fabrication table in the photo so that it can be removed easily and still act as a good work station. I made the mount for the cleats tonight and the boxed ends for the bellows. I'm hoping to use a foot control to compress the bellows and I think someone in a past post had suggested adding some weight to the bottom to let gravity do the work for opening it. Any treadle suggestions or photos?

Also, when it comes to a descent yet affordable tuner are people using a stand alone unit or is there a phone app that can work.

IMG_8728 by Pat McInnis, on Flickr
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Rog

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2019, 07:51:38 AM »

If you search for 'tuning table' on this forum there is lots of info. Somewhere some pix of mine, and plenty of other designs too.  It’s possibleto create a simple treadle that pulls and pushes as it rocks on a pivot, using (in my case) a couple of door hinges. You can also use springs and bungees but these (to my mind) seem over complicated. Others will of course disagree.

Lester

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 08:08:15 AM »

Can't beat the Peterson iStroboSoft for a tuner app, cost £9.99 or $9.99 depending on where you are available for Apple or Android
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/istrobosoft/id308296029?mt=8

Theo

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 08:11:48 AM »

A rocking treadle is what I use.  No weights or bunges needed.  That way the movement is completely under your control. Downside is that you have to learn the control to produce a steady airflow.  The advantage (a big advantage for me) is that you can feel and hear how a reed responds over the full range of pressure.  I find that invaluable for setting reeds for optimum responsiveness,  and it’s also helpful for diagnosing some of the problems associated with reeds that sometimes make slight contact along the edges.
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Pat McInnis

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2019, 03:25:02 PM »

Excellent info all 'round. I have done quite a bit of research on older posts, which has taken me to this stage but no good treadle shots popped out for me. I'll go back to the archives and dig some more.
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Rog

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2019, 05:28:32 PM »

Here you go - here are some pictures I took when I was making it. The table is an old school exam desk (£2 at an auction). The trick with the door hinge treadle is to set the pivot (a triangular section of timber) so that it sits with one corner uppermost, rather than flat.
I also fitted some rails to stop the bellows escaping towards the operator. And extended the legs to make the whole thing 90cm high.
https://goo.gl/photos/ACHBkNaJSSune5so6
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 05:41:49 PM by RogerT »
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Pat McInnis

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2019, 03:57:19 AM »

Thanks Roger. That looks pretty straight forward. I got the business end figured out today and hopefully I'll get the actuator done in the next couple of days when I can get some time. Then I'll be looking for a comfortable chair I think. Haha

IMG_8729 by Pat McInnis, on Flickr
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2019, 07:35:14 AM »

You might want to consider a cut-out gap in the top surface so you can position the entire instrument end (with its bellows removed of course) on top of your tuning bellows. This is really useful for final tuning of the the reeds in situ in the instrument.

My tuning bellows are hand operated, lifted manually at one end. The cut-out is is 29 cm long and 12.5 cm wide. I can position a variety of instruments on it, Pokerwork, Erica, Corona, all the popular Castagnaris, Saltarelles, etc.

I can adjust the length of the cut-out by using a strip of 3mm ply, 8cm x 30 cm which is covered with chamois leather. The strip is butted up to the end of the particular instrument and then clamped to the tuning table top surface, which itself is covered with chamois leather. This set-up gives a reasonably air tight seal. Reeds tuned in situ with this set up are very close (usually within a cent) to the final pitch in the fully assembled instrument.

When I want to tune reeds in the reed block outside the instrument (as in your photo), I clamp a separate flat plywood sheet on top of the cut-out, with a single hole cut in it to match the reed chamber opening. This is useful for pre-tuning reeds which need a lot of adjustment, but remember that reeds tuned on the block outside of the instrument will be significantly different in pitch when replaced back in the instrument. Usually, reeds sounded on the block outside the instrument will be around 5 cents sharp compared with when in the instrument.

I tend to only work with the reed block on top of the tuning bellows only to check and adjust the reed tip gap to ensure optimum response. All final tuning is done in situ in the instrument as described above.
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Steve
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2019, 08:14:39 AM »

I did try making a hand operated bellows to do what Steve describes..but it wasn’t very successful.
Mine works very well. The whole set-up just clamps to a table top or bench, so is also portable and easy to store (space is at a premium in our house!).
What problems did you find with yours?

Quote
For the time being I just lift the end on and off the actual accordion to fine tune
Yes I do that too, particularly for very fine adjustments to tremolo.
But normally I try to keep the number of times I keep cycling the removal/replacement of the instrument on its own bellows to an absolute minimum, in order to minimise possible wear or damage to the rebate joint and the bellows gasket.

Edit:
Oh - your post has disappeared while I was making this reply to it!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 08:17:07 AM by Steve_freereeder »
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Steve
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John MacKenzie (Cugiok)

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2019, 10:08:48 AM »

I am tempted by this blueprint, but it isn't cheap.

http://www.stringsandboxes.de/epages/es117831.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=72327154

Sir John
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Rog

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2019, 12:46:42 PM »

Hi Steve...sorry..yes I deleted it. :)
But you captured the essence in your reply!
My bellows were hand operated ... so not much difference between that and just working the instrument bellows with the end held in place. I found the varying sizes of ends meant I’d need a selection of oblong apertures...and I couldn’t get it to seal very well either. Perhaps I’ll have another go... sounds like a project to create a foot operated one.

Sir John .... yes I’ve seen that. The interesting bit is the table top fitting. The rest is similar to mine. Old folding school desks are great as a starting point. I bought 5 of them in an auction about 25 yrs ago for £3 each. There is one on eBay at the moment for £69 Ono, and one (with a chair and smaller desk) on Gumtree for £20.  All I did was drill holes, hot glue bellows to underside and devise a foot pedal, so it wasn’t a major undertaking. I admit I had to extend the legs but also not hard.
Here is a desk... but £69 seems way over the odds. More like £20.  The lower side rails are where you mount your treadle pivot.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183635816203
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:04:25 PM by RogerT »
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2019, 12:50:45 PM »

I am tempted by this blueprint, but it isn't cheap.

http://www.stringsandboxes.de/epages/es117831.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=72327154

Sir John
Looks awfully complicated. I think I would have to start by getting some plans for a bigger workshop!  :Ph
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Pat McInnis

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2019, 03:49:08 PM »

You might want to consider a cut-out gap in the top surface so you can position the entire instrument end (with its bellows removed of course) on top of your tuning bellows. This is really useful for final tuning of the the reeds in situ in the instrument.

My tuning bellows are hand operated, lifted manually at one end. The cut-out is is 29 cm long and 12.5 cm wide. I can position a variety of instruments on it, Pokerwork, Erica, Corona, all the popular Castagnaris, Saltarelles, etc.

 Usually, reeds sounded on the block outside the instrument will be around 5 cents sharp compared with when in the instrument.


I would be interested to see how your hand actuator works. Is it just a handle at the bottom on one end or did you make some sort of lever? Simple and portable is pretty important for being able to reclaim my fab bench for other projects. As far as mounting the instrument (sans bellows) to the table, I hadn't thought about that. I always assumed that tuning in situ actually meant that the box was back together for testing. I am becoming very aware of the ware and tear on taking the machine apart over and over and hope to do much less of that. If it wasn't too much trouble could you take a photo of your table with the large cut out?

The chamoise is a good thought too. I was noticing quite a bit of leak-by while testing with the smooth MDF material that I chose to use on top.

It's a learning curve but thanks to the info provided here and in the archives, I'm getting there.

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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2019, 03:55:48 PM »

...If it wasn't too much trouble could you take a photo of your table with the large cut out?
yes - I will take some photos and post them in the next couple of days (bit busy with other things at the moment).
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Steve
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Pat McInnis

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2019, 04:03:18 PM »

...If it wasn't too much trouble could you take a photo of your table with the large cut out?
yes - I will take some photos and post them in the next couple of days (bit busy with other things at the moment).

That would be great Steve. Pouring concrete in my basement today so I plan on being sore for a while anyways.

I'm hoping that I can adapt my system to accommodate the type of slightly more fine tuning that you are talking about but in truth I need to do a lot of rough tuning I think to just get close. There's a long way to go.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 01:01:31 PM »

As promised, here are some photos of my tuning bellows set-up. I will spread them out over a couple of posts.
The actual bellows external dimensions are 33 cm x 18.5 cm and were a cheap ebay purchase several years ago (£20 if I remember correctly). The bellows frames are glued to a 9mm plywood base with a 5 cm margin all the way round. This allows clamping to a bench top as shown in the photos.

The cut-out top is also 9mm ply with a similar overlap margin. This allows you to hold and move one end of the bellows up and down. Nothing more fancy than that.
The top is covered with chamois leather.

The rest of the set-up is described here:
http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,23369.msg278619.html#msg278619
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Steve
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2019, 01:04:25 PM »

More photos...
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Steve
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2019, 01:05:49 PM »

Last set of photos:
Apologies for the blurry photo of my wife working the bellows, but you should get the idea.
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Steve
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Pat McInnis

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2019, 03:42:41 PM »

Very nice Steve. I really appreciate this. My treadle set-up is...fine, if I really focus on keeping the bellows from deflecting but I'm having trouble controlling the airflow which is giving my readings a pretty big variance. It looks like you have hinged one side and use the overlapped plywood as a handle to tilt the whole treble end or reed block? Later today I hope to do little mod with a similar control but I think that I may hinge it down so that the table remains flat all the time.

Stay tuned  ::)
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: Table Build
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2019, 03:57:34 PM »

It looks like you have hinged one side and use the overlapped plywood as a handle to tilt the whole treble end or reed block?
There's no actual hinge, you just lift the bellows at one end. You could equally well lift them at the other end or along the long side (I sometimes do).
I can also put the bass end on the tuning bellows too.

Overall, it's a versatile and compact set-up, which does the job nicely.
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Steve
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