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Author Topic: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?  (Read 5718 times)

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Eshed

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 03:08:43 PM »

for anyone relatively new to the DG ( or CF etc) box it is worth keeping in mind that on the push any combination of buttons 'on the row' will harmonise  and on the pull there is just one pair of button that won't ( find this out by suck and see method so you will remember it)
Depending on the underlying harmony!
If you're playing C push on the LH, your only real harmony on the RH is G.
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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2019, 03:40:59 PM »

Eric Clapton once said he learned a number of classic blues riffs and tried to incorporate them into his playing whenever possible - a sort of cut and paste.

When I was learning the guitar - more years ago than I'm prepared to admit to - I was told to take the phrases of a tune and embellish them by adding, substituting, or even subtracting notes where appropriate. Start by taking a simple tune, something like Stephane Delicq's 'Septembre', or even better, 'Once I loved (a Maiden Fair)'. In 1651's version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slmTxkkJoH4) Mark Emerson takes a very simple melody and builds on the phrases by improvising. The simplicity of the tune also allows for a great variation in left hand chords. Best advice I was given was to break everything down and proceed very slowly. Good luck
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IanD

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 05:59:47 PM »

Improvisation (and harmonisation) on an instrument is a bit like harmony singing -- you have to have a feel for the chord sequence (or sequences) and the tune before you can do it effectively. The two-row diatonic box has a huge inbuilt advantage in that if you learn a tune (and bass accompanment) playing almost anything on the same row (in the same direction) will fit (with some exceptions...), but it probably won't sound good unless you have some idea about how harmony and counterpoint works. If you haven't got this skill, probably the only way to acquire it by practising is to noodle along to a recording at home and see what fits and what takes your fancy.

If I'm playing melodeon in a session with several other melodeons I quite often don't play the tune all the time -- because that's just another identical sound -- but instead something that goes with it. Sometimes this will be a harmony (e.g parallel thirds -- but not all the time), sometimes a rhythmic right-hand vamp, sometimes ornamental bits with gaps in, sometimes a contrapuntal line against the tune (good old JSB was great at this...) -- but rarely the same thing twice. However to do this live you need to have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, and make sure that you're not louder than the tune to avoid great confusion...

One of the best tunes I found (accidentally!) for harmonising is Sir Sidney Smith's March -- in the flat session at Sheffield last year Rich Arrowsmith was leading it, I was sitting next to him but I don't think I played the tune once. Maybe a good thing because both our Melos boxes have very similar sounding treble ends in spite of the fact that his is three times the size of mine ;-)
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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 09:06:22 PM »

Eric Clapton once said he learned a number of classic blues riffs and tried to incorporate them into his playing whenever possible - a sort of cut and paste.

In my youth I used to do that a lot on the piano. It's a good plan.

If I'm playing melodeon in a session with several other melodeons I quite often don't play the tune all the time

I do that a lot. It's something you can easily practise in a session or possibly at home listening to a recording. Nick Barber is good at this too.
Playing along with a tune (while someone else is playing the real tune) is a slightly different skill from what happens when a jazz player solos over the chord changes, but both require a pretty good knowledge of the harmonies. You also need the ability to play by ear, because you (I do anyway) 'hear' in your head what you're about to play.

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Nick Ray

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2019, 09:22:11 PM »

There have been a few suggestions about learning scales and arpeggios but I don't think I've ever seen any 'standard' cross-row scale fingering diagrams anywhere for the main D/G key possibilities. Do they exist?
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george garside

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2019, 09:49:09 PM »

You can work it out from the keyboard charts on here I by a bit of picking and prodding amongst the 21 buttons

George
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Dick Rees

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2019, 09:56:16 PM »

If you want great examples of harmonization and chord structure, simply haul out a hymnal and go to it.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2019, 10:19:33 PM »

Llisten to Leveret. Masters.
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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2019, 06:19:34 PM »

I try hard to improvise, not always successfully, and some have a natural gift.

There ARE rules, an for eg a tune in A one good start is to learn the A and F# (relative minor) blues scales on your kit. The latter particularly fluent on a DG 😉

As others have said : Keep strict rhythm, and a true scale. FEEL the chords in there. Breaking a 44 scsle into 12 (ternary) is another simple but effective trick. Then … play what you hear in your head! And NEVER neglect to power of a big of a bit of SILENCE. So kften “more os less”? 

The rest “is” technique. The Grenoble clique do an annual week Impovisation course every February, fir some 30 years now. Brotto will definitely have been there. This year it was sold out in 5 days

Finally, when someone tries an improvised line … give him space. Play flat chords rather than tune. But that’s not the English session way. 🙂

Finally when someone starts an improvised line … give him or her space. Play flat chords, not tune. But tfat isn’t yge English session way? 🙂
W
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 06:26:42 PM by Chris Ryall »
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playandteach

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2019, 11:31:24 PM »


As others have said : Keep strict rhythm, and a true scale. FEEL the chords in there. Breaking a 44 scsle into 12 (ternary) is another simple but effective trick. Then … play what you hear in your head! And NEVER neglect to power of a big of a bit of SILENCE. So kften “more os less”? 

The rest “is” technique. The Grenoble clique do an annual week Impovisation course every February, fir some 30 years now. Brotto will definitely have been there. This year it was sold out in 5 days

Finally, when someone tries an improvised line … give him space. Play flat chords rather than tune. But that’s not the English session way. 🙂

Finally when someone starts an improvised line … give him or her space. Play flat chords, not tune. But tfat isn’t yge English session way? 🙂
W
I think you're improvising with letters here, Chris. (I'm sure it's typing on a phone). Good to see you back and commenting again. Hope you're well.
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george garside

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2019, 12:06:09 AM »

surely 'improvisation' is about experimentation and trial and error unfettered by theory or whatever as if there were rules it wouldn't be improvising?

A friemd who played trombone asked if he could 'sit in' at our regular ceilidh band practice to which I agreed. He asked for the written music of our tunes and I provided him with this him being classicaly trained and all that.  His attempts to join in with winster gallop etc etc  sounded grim to put it politely.

 Not wanting to tell him to bugger off  I suggested that perhaps if he just played a series of notes a bit like a double bass it would sound better. His eyes lit up and he said do you mean I can improvise , I used to be a jazz trombonist.  I thought why not  and we proceeded to play the Swedish masquerade. He improvised and it sounded brilliant and he became a regular band member    improvising on the hoof when we played tunes he had never heard   be they marches, jigs, reels, waltzes etc .  his 'improvisation ' was as he put it 'just following his nose!

george
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Dick Rees

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2019, 01:55:07 AM »

Great story, George. Here's one for you:

My wife has a yearly appointment with an allergist whose clinic is a 4 hour drive away.  She cannot drive after treatment and can't stay in a motel or hotel because of her allergic reaction to the usual suspects...carpet cleaners, mold, air fresheners and a host of other chemicals.  So I drive her both ways and take a skweezbox along to kill the 3-4 hours at the clinic.

We go in May, so Spring has sprung.  I set up my travelling wooden folding chair and just play out back by a small pond surrounded by young trees.  It never fails, being Spring and all, a bird will perch in the tree and sing along if I play up the dusty end.  Last year it was a robin who stayed for almost an hour,  the year before a cardinal.  Neither bird knows the tune or reads music, but they can improvise!

I've learned a lot from them...
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2019, 01:23:27 AM »

There's a "Grenoble way" to improvise, and it's based on the underlying chord "path" that lies behind a theme tune. You can play "in" chord. You can do things based on chord extensions. I'll use a friendly Em chord as exemplar

That is great for melodeon music - we generally define only tonic, and intervals 3 and 5 in our chords (eg EGB in Em).  The 7th can be minor or major. You can play 9th (F#) note true, or flatten it? The 6th is a key note - b6 C is the simple minor., C# is dorian. BOTH work against Em chord. It is also great fun to mix them, to slip from C to C# (MAIN ROW notes 😉) in a bebop scale.

Play on E minor scake with a C# and D# over Em and you are improvising in melodic/jazz minor. That sounds cool,😎

or move the rhythm into ternary and …feel …  totally indifferent to whether C and D are natural or sharp … gosh! You now sound like Hot Club "minor swing". There ARE rules …

Rules too about what chords work as a sequence … cadence. ii V i progression. Too hard? Is it Hell!

ii chord is F#m75b … ANY 4 touching bottons, pull, on G row
V is B7, so use accidentals, but Bm7 works too, less cadence, never mind …
Resolving to Em7, Em with a D added. That might be a different bass? Trivial on a Club box

So … futher rules, driven by "what works" Most 1950s jazz was 2/5/1 sequence driven!

Then they went modal … NOW you need a third row!

But "WTF"? The only thing that never works is to play major scale over minor chord. It is vile. Yet minor scale over a major chord … cool! Another thing to learn.

And blues scale … E G A Bb B D E works over either major or minor scale! Magic! So does C blues! More magic. You can drop,that in anywhere. The keys to success are 1. Strict rythm, and 2. Some silence to create tension. Another "rule"!

Want to play "out"?  Well pentatonics based on all notes of the Em chord notes seem to work! They don't all use Em scale notes. So they move in and out of tension. Build on that (another rule)! Over the B7 turnaround … virtually anything works so long as it is structured! Experiment with D, Ab, or F(!) Major triads - amazingly they ALL work! They ALL resolve back to Em! Extraorodinary! There is a reason : They are all notes contained in the Bb diminished scale. 

"Out" play without intrinsic structure? Well, you've been warned…

So yes, enjoy, the beauty lies in phrasing, pregnant silences, motifs, repetition, building tension, resolution. But the "rules" help stop you exploring a line that might go sour, or ugly.

As I say, it's all covered in the course. Even its "Blues day".

But Blues = Rules, plus "attitude" 😉
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 01:32:48 AM by Chris Ryall »
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2019, 01:41:03 AM »

Link to some of the rules based stuff as per above. Isère summer course, Friday night about 3am.  Zi like the fast auvergnat best. And it's ALL danceable!

  http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8143.msg101116.html#msg101116
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playandteach

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2019, 09:28:19 AM »

Chris, much as there are great reasons for many people to understand what they are attempting to do, I'm not sure that the typical melodeon player wants to think like that. Apologies for pretending to know what others might think.
I suspect that for many, improvisation equates to freedom. Rules that are so detailed are more likely to be obstacles to experimentation than paths to success.
Perhaps a softer start would help.
 Reading through your advice, you could distil it to say that you should try minor keys first but avoid playing the major 3rd in the right hand.
On another point, as an ex sax player I used to find the pattern based improvisation of Mike Brecker hugely impressive but ultimately predictable. The tuned based improvisation of Johnny Hodges and Paul Desmond has never left me feeling cold.
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george garside

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2019, 10:14:55 AM »

the two most recent posts go a long way to confirming that so called improvisation is very much ''each to his own'' some liking a theoretical model and others the ''suck and see'' method.( or should it be the 'blow, suck and see' method)

aand long may this diversity continue!

george (  a paid up member of the 'suck and see' camp)
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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2019, 10:38:21 AM »

Being a musical ignoramus, George's way seems best and easiest to me. In fact, a great deal of my ordinary playing contains improvisation, as I cannot always remember exactly how the real tune actually goes!

As one of the online dictionaries says, "something that is improvised, in particular a piece of music, drama, etc. created spontaneously or without preparation."

Sounds like my mess most of the time!!!
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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2019, 12:47:42 PM »

Chris, sorry for jumping in on your post. I'd hate you to think that I didn't value your approach and contributions.
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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2019, 03:37:38 PM »

in the world of folk/trad music many of the tunes we play  were thought up a long long time ago  and were passed on 'by ear' rather than on a sheet of paper.  Even those that started off on paper have usually forked out in many directions, some arrangements, or should it be re arrangements ,deductions, additions or whatever  being notated and others simply passed on 'by ear'  .  Others have been sort of 'accidentally' re arranged  as.#, like Winston describes, the hearer of a tune cant remember all the detail of a tune he heard at eg a dance or session  and  fills in the missing bits with something slightly or not slightly different - yet another arrangement creeps in as somebody else hears that , forgets some of it and rearranges/ad libs etc etc ad infinitum.   

Of course there are those who own up  and add ''arrangement Joe bloggs'' to the notation or recording

so its all a bit like the original  executioners axe 17th century axe ( that just happens to have had 3 new heads and six new handles!


but its all good fun



george

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Chris Ryall

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Re: Improvisation - how to learn that skill?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2019, 01:11:43 PM »

I have no problem with "play what you hear in your head" improvisation. Did it myself for many years. Sometimes it works fine - and in my case - sometimes quite awful. I have to say that my daughter  Dolly improvises on gut feeling with much more success.

I was trying to express that there are no rules as to what you play, but there ARE rules as to what won't work.   

Here are some field recordings from an Isère summer "trad" course, Friday night about 3am.  #4, the fast auvergnat" bourrée is a good case in point. Fairly simple theme? the first Impo break is by an Italian bagpiper. Due to his instrument he plays "In" scale. Very nice too? Let's all note how the other players "give space" for him to do his thing. That's important too ;)

2nd break is by the obsessively experimental Norbert Pignol, and … he quickly goes "Out" of scale? But it works! Why? Because it respects the "rules" as to what doesn't work.

  http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,8143.msg101116.html#msg101116

The whole thing is danceable, right through, incidentally.  My «chavallière» was a delightful parisienne pharmacist. We were both quite astonished as the musical fireworks went off, you can hear the gasps. 

But we kept dancing. That's why   keeping strict rhythm matters, but it also matters in simple "for listening" improvised lines.

they finish with a Maj7 C# note on the Dm chord. That's another "thing that works" An F# wouldn't 😝

Do listen to them please, they show what I mean. 🙂

« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 01:25:08 PM by Chris Ryall »
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