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Author Topic: best tuning practices  (Read 2759 times)

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mselic

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best tuning practices
« on: January 21, 2019, 07:47:11 PM »

I'm relatively new to tuning, having only tuned somewhere between 1000 and 2000 reeds at this point. For the most part, I rely on a good quality file for sharpening pitch, and a reed scratcher for lowering pitch.  This has worked fine most of the time, but I'm finding that with instruments that are tuned much higher than 440Hz, it takes a fair bit of scratching the reeds to bring the reeds down to the 440 standard (when that is desired). 

I'm confident that my reed scratches are not causing any damage to the reed; the are kept within the confines of the reed tongue, and done with a quality reed scratcher.  However, I am questioning what is best practice here, both for the integrity of the reeds, and also for time/energy expenditure on my end.  It seems that filing the reed to lower pitch might be better (and certainly looks nicer), however this isn't really a possibility on the inside reeds unless I was to remove them from the wax.  I also find that, when filing to lower the pitch, after steading the reed with a flat metal tool and filing away, the reed gap has been affected with the tip of the reed tongue resting a little lower.  This then necessitates re-setting gap, something that I don't have to do when using the scratcher.

What are people's experiences and opinions on best practice when having to lower the pitch a fair amount (say 445 to 440 on an entire instrument!)
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Theo

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 08:38:52 PM »

If lowering the pitch by a larger amount than is convenient with a scratcher then filing is the way to go, and yes it means taking the reed plate out of the wax. At some point the extra time taken to deal with the wax will be more than offset by the saving of time with the scratcher.

If you use a really sharp file the reed should not need re-setting after filing.  So what is a good sharp file?  Well for starters reed steel is quite hard and files will be blunted much more quickly than if you were working with mild steel.  I now only use Swiss needle files, my favourite is the Vallorbe triangular needle file cut 1 or cut 2.  Swiss flies go from cut 0 (coarsest) to cut 6 (finest).  I also use a Vallorbe triangular saw file 4" which is wider than the needle file and coarser and although cheaper for one file I find that the needle files last longer, so I'm using the saw files less and less now.  I'll also use a Swiss hand file when low reeds need to have a lot of metal removed near the tip to raise the pitch.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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ChrisLDD

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 09:45:09 PM »

If you use a really sharp file the reed should not need re-setting after filing. 

I too have noticed that filing to lower the pitch on a reed sometimes causes the reed-tip to lower and then need re-setting - I assumed that this was due to re-balancing of the internal stresses within the reed tongue.
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mselic

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 03:07:09 PM »

Thanks for that info, Theo. Are you saying that you remove the plates from the wax, tune them individually on a tuning table/bellows using a file, and then wax them back into place and do final tuning with a reed scratcher?

In the past when tuning reeds on blocks using tuning bellows, I got results that were very close to the final tuning once the box was assembled and checked. However, I tried using a different set of tuning bellows the other day (made from an old piano accordion, rather than from an old Hohner 2-row body) and the results were *waaay* off! Not sure what happened there, but don’t think I’d use those bellows again. Any reason this would have been the case?
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Theo

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 03:18:26 PM »

For maintenance tuning I do everything in the instrument without removing reed plates.  The most common pitch change I do is tuning from old German pitch at 435 up to 440 and usually there the wax and valves need to be renewed anyway.  Sometime I need to tune down if reducing tremolo, typical on Hohners.  I rarely take these all the way to dry, usually form Hohner wet down to 3hz or 4hz offset.  I do that with a scratcher.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Jake Middleton (brinwins)

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 08:39:31 AM »

Ah Theo I see we use the same shop. They are like my go to place for decent tools, lots of nice files there at good prices.

Theo

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2019, 08:47:45 AM »

I was stuck for files in Belgium recently and found this great tool shop in the diamond district of Antwerp.  They have more in the shop than on the website.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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mselic

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2020, 10:00:23 PM »

Theo, you mentioned earlier in this thread (a while back now) that you use Swiss needle files for all your tuning work. Are these diamond needle files, or something else?
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Theo

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2020, 10:01:56 PM »

Those files I referred to are traditions steel files.  I have been experimenting with diamond files and plan to post my experiences soon.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Rog

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2020, 02:00:43 PM »

Interesting Theo that you use a triangular file. I use the square Swiss files, mainly because it gives me four faces rather than three  (:), plus I can guide the tip without leaving a V shaped dent in my finger.
On the subject of the Reed tips curling inward, this happens (to me) when applying pressure to get the file to cut, less pressure (with a very sharp file) seems to mitigate this issue. Supporting the reed along its length seems to help (with, say, a feeler gauge blade).. If I am pretuning I.e. sans valves etc I have a shaped brass anvil (with sharp edge.... it cuts as I discovered one day) clamped to the edge of the tuning table, copied from one used in one of the reed making vids. This also mitigates reed curl in, or seems to.

rees

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 12:27:42 PM »

Hi Roger. Could you post a photo of your brass anvil? Cheers.
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Winston Smith

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2020, 04:55:17 PM »

I was going to ask for that too, but I'm not cheeky enough! I should think it's something more than my little iron one.
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tirpous

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2020, 05:06:00 PM »

I may be wrong, but I think he means something like that:

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chris hall

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2020, 05:21:27 PM »

i use the same files but recently thought i thought id try other methods. so......i bought one of these and tried it out on some reeds in an old accordion.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Electric-Engraver-Engraving-Diamond-Engrave/dp/B07J4GRC2J/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3EFUE2B1EUHA0&dchild=1&keywords=engraver+pen&qid=1587830861&sprefix=engraver%2Caps%2C154&sr=8-5

all i can say is it worked great...very little pressure needed....speed is variable...with a steady hand and care it works great as far as i can see.  but what im wondering is are there reasons its not a good idea to use such a tool. its not a high speed dremel that i can understand could cause a lot of collaterall damage in a short space of time. it can operate slowly with light finger pressure....its nice and small and light and easy to handle...it seems such a neat tool. so i know it works. what i dont know is are there reasons i shouldnt use it?

ive heard such tools arent good but need to know why before i carry on using it.
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Rog

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2020, 07:48:34 PM »

I may be wrong, but I think he means something like that:
Yup, that’s it. I didn’t actually know what to call it, but clamped to the tuning bench it’s pretty much an anvil (or a bent piece of scrap brass). The edge is v sharp in order to slide a reed onto it. I played with the shape (which looks random, but it isn’t) to get it to sit proud of the edge if the table and obvs filed a sharp edge. Using a long square file it’s possible to alter reeds by quite a lot with one or two strokes of the file (if that’s what you want). I also ping the reed on the edge when removing it and with practice this resets it. It works v well for me, esp e.g. if i need to push a complete set of PA reeds from 436 to 440 (say). But the edge is bloody sharp and will slice open your finger (as it did mine).
Pix here

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dPRoMgfCGrA1REbv7

« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:08:53 AM by RogerT »
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Harmonicatunes

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2020, 05:08:37 AM »

Helpful discussion. I have much experience tuning harmonica reeds, but none with accordion reeds. However I do have an accordion tuning project, a wonderfully setup Swiss made D/G Hohner 2915, tuned as wet as a Yorkshire spring day. I'd like it somewhat drier, Also, the third button pull on the bottom row (the E) is noticeably sour. I have and A/D Erica tuned by Theo, a G/C 2915 tuned by Peter Hyde, both with slightly less than "standard" Pokerwork tuning. I'd like, if possible, to have a similar tuning for my D/G Hohner. My questions are:

1) can any of the experienced tuners out there point me to a reference table for various Hohner tunings

2) I would seek the best tools, Theo's advice on files is timely. Based on my experience with harmonicas I would prefer a reed scratcher than a file for lowering pitch. Can anyone point me to a good purpose made accordion reed scratcher.

3) Would I be able to get away with my breath, perhaps delivered via a tube with an end to fit snugly on the reed block, to sound the reeds? Or should I roll up my sleeves and build a tuning table.

I would aim to retune all the reeds in situ, hopefully my harmonica experience would help me reach the difficult areas. Hopefully I could manage this without removing reeds. It's bad enough applying my amateur reed tuning skills, without replacing the current superb reed waxing job with my half baked attempts.
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tirpous

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 06:44:57 AM »

1) Not sure this is relevant - maybe you should rather document your A/D and G/C since this is the tuning you like.

2) Charlie Marshall (CGM Musical Services) has scratchers.

3) You can use the box itself as a tuning table.
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Steve_freereeder

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2020, 10:00:17 AM »

Can anyone point me to a good purpose made accordion reed scratcher.
I made mine from an old steel needle file:
1. I used a carborundum stone to grind away the teeth from the last 5 cm of the file so that it wouldn't damage the reed plate slot when working on the underneath reeds.
2. I ground the last 10 mm of the tip down to a cylindrical shape about 1 mm diameter, with a squared-off end, so it appears like a tiny circle when viewed end on. What you don't want is a sharp point, as this only digs into the reed tongue steel.

It is important to do the grinding/shaping by hand, not with a machine rotary stone, as the latter would risk heating the file to the point at which the temper and hardness of the steel would be affected.

In use, it is important to maintain the sharp edge of the squared-off end by carefully grinding perpendicuarly on an oil stone or, better, a diamond coated steel grinding plate. Over time the cylindrical tip becomes shortened so periodically it is necessary to regrind the cylindrical portion to compensate for the lost length. These days I use a hand-held diamond file to do this. If I were making the scratcher again I would use diamond files/plates to perform steps 1 and 2 above.
It works just fine and I have been using it for over 13 years now.

When not in use, I protect the tip of the scratcher with a short section of wood dowel with a narrow hole drilled into the axis.

2) Charlie Marshall (CGM Musical Services) has scratchers.
Yes he does, but I'm not sure if he is currently trading due to coronavirus restrictions and self-isolation. 
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Theo

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 11:50:33 AM »


2) I would seek the best tools, Theo's advice on files is timely. Based on my experience with harmonicas I would prefer a reed scratcher than a file for lowering pitch. Can anyone point me to a good purpose made accordion reed scratcher.

The best I've found are these ones from Carini. 
Quote

3) Would I be able to get away with my breath, perhaps delivered via a tube with an end to fit snugly on the reed block, to sound the reeds?

Definitely not.  Quite apart from the condensation you will get on the reeds, and the risk of inhaling debris you just can't get a big enough sustained air flow.  If you plan to tune on the blocks you can use the instrument as suggested by Tirpous. Two rails clamped to a work bench that the bellows can slide onto is all you need.  A tuning table is only useful for pre-tuning.
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Theo Gibb - Gateshead UK

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Harmonicatunes

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Re: best tuning practices
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2020, 03:51:17 AM »

Hi all. Thanks for the great advice, in particular, using the accordion itself as a tuning table, so that I don't end up blowing on the reeds.
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