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Author Topic: Bellows  (Read 3409 times)

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Winston Smith

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2019, 08:46:47 AM »

To my mind, this discussion is becoming as boring as the Brexit debate, and also as pointless. richard.fleming and Stiamh seem to be as entrenched in their positions as George is in his, along with others; just like The Brexiteers and the Remainers!
Give us a break, please?
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Lester

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2019, 09:08:46 AM »

To my mind, this discussion is becoming as boring as the Brexit debate, and also as pointless. richard.fleming and Stiamh seem to be as entrenched in their positions as George is in his, along with others; just like The Brexiteers and the Remainers!
Give us a break, please?


You could always just not read the thread and leave us who may or may not be interested to carry on.

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2019, 09:11:49 AM »

I actually find this discussion interesting. It gives us (me, anyway) an insight into how others think, feel and play music of their own genres and traditions. Anything which helps friendship and consensus is good, in my opinion.

Edward - if you find the thread boring, you don't have to read it.

Edit - I see Lester has said much the same thing while I was typing my own reply.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:13:52 AM by Steve_freereeder »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2019, 09:42:22 AM »

on an 8 bass BC the um pa bass played throughout the proceedings  is only possible in C

george
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...so generations of dancers must have managed without um-pa basses pretty successfully.

Just because your preferred keys are DG and their related minor modes doesn't mean you are going umpa, umpa , umpa!

Um Pa bass is an option, and there's nought wrong with it, purr say, but it's not all, or even most of what of what happens, down our way, in the darkest depths of Devon, amongst the primitive savages of the border morris fraternity.

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Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Winston Smith

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2019, 09:47:05 AM »

Thanks both, that is certainly the obvious solution to my own misgivings. (But it's not really, as I feel compelled to read everything on here, whether it's boring or beyond my experience or understanding anyway!)
Nevertheless, I fear an underlying sense of a determination to "win" this "battle of the boxes" which could well lead to an unwanted unpleasantness on an otherwise welcoming forum. But I'll bow to wiser counsel, as ever.
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george garside

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2019, 10:07:16 AM »

The melodeon, button accordion, accordion diatonique or whatever you want to call it comes in a verieghty of tunings  and is played in many different (all ''correct'') ways in many countries. For  what is with a few exeptions a small compact instrument it is wonderfully versatile and very much 'each to his own'  in the way it is played.

Whilst it is, particularly in DG form, highly suitable for rhythm driven morris  it is , even in DG form, suitable for lots of other musical genres  albeit with some ingenious 'fakiing' or ? re arranging tunes to get round its limitations, and there the fun lies.

preferences but not entrenchment?

george :||: :|glug ;)
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richard.fleming

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2019, 10:35:52 AM »

I started this thread out of curiosity. I hope what I've brought to it has been constructive - as someone from what is clearly a minority on this forum, I may have a different perspective. We all know that whatever tradition we play in the box has the potential to be delightful or to make a racket. I started off playing morris, I understand the attraction, I moved on to ITM because I liked it more and found it a lifetime challenge, that's all.
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Anahata

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2019, 10:46:56 AM »

The only Morris team I ever danced with danced to the pipe and tabor of Russell Wortley

You and me both! (danced to Russell's playing , anyway - it wasn't my only morris team by a long way).

Quote
so maybe that may help me to say I'm no fan of oom-pah basses
The thing with the pipe and tabor is that the tabor is an important part of the combination, which implies that it would be useful to have something going on with the melodeon basses when playing for morris, but the emphasis should be much more on rhythm than harmony.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2019, 11:32:26 AM »

As far as I can remember Russell Wortley's rhythm on the tabor was fairly light and simple, and I have always assumed - perhaps wrongly - that he went back far enough to have serious roots - or connections, anyway -  in the tradition. Correct me if I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 11:34:09 AM by richard.fleming »
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richard.fleming

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2019, 11:39:40 AM »

To my mind, this discussion is becoming as boring as the Brexit debate, and also as pointless. richard.fleming and Stiamh seem to be as entrenched in their positions as George is in his, along with others; just like The Brexiteers and the Remainers!
Give us a break, please?
As for George, his replies suggest to me a reasonable, amiable and tolerant position. Stiamh doesn't come across as entrenched either; another reasonable man I would say, judging by his posts. And now you know I was a Morris dancer once, maybe you'll give me the benefit of the doubt too?
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Rees

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2019, 11:41:05 AM »

Richard, I'm having trouble seeing you as a Morris dancer  :M :M :M ;)
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-Y-

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2019, 11:43:38 AM »

My point is that there are good reasons why certain types of boxes are preferred for particular styles of music. Whilst that is not to say that they can only be played on those boxes, to play something different will probably lead to differences in playing style which may raise eyebrows or even provoke hostility amongst purists (if you don't believe me, look for the discussions about the suitability of the English concertina for Irish music, which arouses strong passions among ITM purists).

I find that more often than not, the segmentation of instruments for specific music styles is fairly recent. Saying that is not really a criticism, it's just that we went from some kind of tinkering (it's especially true for accordions, which were really easy instruments to play, compared with violin or other reed instruments) to a relatively rigid academism in a very short period of time. All that combined and I feel that « suitability » is kind of an irrelevant criterion to put the debate on. For instance there's as much playing style difference between Dermot Byrne, Danny O Mahony or Joe Burke (yes, I know, B/C is not C#/D, etc.) as between a semitone-apart box and what you would have if you'd play ITM on a fourth-apart box. So, rather than really putting the debate on the music itself, it's rather a "discussion" that allows some people to be in the position of being the prescriptor of good taste, I think (not that I'm implying that it's what anyone here is doing, it's a general observation).
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Re: Bellows
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2019, 12:18:51 PM »

I started this thread out of curiosity. I hope what I've brought to it has been constructive.

The discussion has been constructive, but I think it would have been more useful if we had had a clearer idea of what was actually being talked about. Richard, in the first post you mentioned triplets but as others pointed out, that could mean a variety of things. If you gave us an example of a tune and a particular passage in a tune that caused you to raise the subject, we could have had a more focused discussion of the technical issues involved and how to approach them on different systems. (I did try to home in on this aspect earlier, but nobody followed up  (:) )

The thing is, when not enough precise information is provided everybody can easily be talking at cross purposes - the story of the four blind men and the leg of the elephant comes to mind...  :|glug
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richard.fleming

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2019, 12:20:19 PM »

So, rather than really putting the debate on the music itself, it's rather a "discussion" that allows some people to be in the position of being the prescriptor of good taste, I think (not that I'm implying that it's what anyone here is doing, it's a general observation).
If you are a musician you have to deal in what you at least think is 'good taste' unless you are going to slavishly follow a traditional style. The quote above uses the word 'prescriptor' in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable, because it implies telling others what is in good taste; but we as musicians must surely always be dealing in what we think is good taste, unless it's more a question of being able to play the bloody tune at all, as it often is with ITM, and we must sometimes discuss this with each other, surely?
  As for Joe Burke et al there's a whole minefield of discussion there about politics and class and nationalism in the discussion of which style to play. Just the words 'I play C#/D' places you in a particular place in that debate.
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Re: Bellows
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2019, 01:20:22 PM »

Indeed, the concept of beauty is at the core of any artistic activity, I do not question this. I fear I was not sufficiently clear: I think that focusing the debate on which system you use is irrelevant in this respect. It's more often than not a means to divert the question of music and debate technicalities that, in the end, do not really matter (IMO).
I used the word 'prescriptor' purposely to describe what you say, because I think that in the melodeon world we're way too focused on the systems we use, on rearguard concerns about whether or not 3-rows are diatonic instruments, and so forth. The experience I have in such debates is that such arguments on accordion system very rarely serves the purpose of discussion the beauty in art. Add to that identity concerns (which often permeates traditional music), and I'm not at all sure the conditions of debate are very clear.
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Re: Bellows
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2019, 01:58:36 PM »

I can only play 4th apart boxes, and my skill level is nowhere as good as a typical Irish session player.
I do try though and a little serious effort is starting pay.
Triplets still make me stumble though and I can't work out why.
In "boys of bluehill" I manage reasonably well but in the change to triplets in a couple of bars on the second b I always lose the rythmn. Only those triplets, none of the others.
I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
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Re: Bellows
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2019, 02:29:56 PM »

As a mostly on the row player some places it feels better and sounds better IMO to do a ornament with the bellows.
Eg. The Sailors bonnet reel  the A part it might be noted A2 FA but played
ABA FA I think this is how a fiddle player does it ?  Well I seen it noted this way and I find this easier.

I believe most would do AdA FA  for that part on the push and some other combination could be done.
You can’t really do this ABA on the push or pull  on a semitone so it is good to know how to use the bellows.
But if you have a DG you could do it on the push, I suppose.

Just tossing an example in to this conversation, I hope its not distracting.

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2019, 02:51:32 PM »

I can only play 4th apart boxes, and my skill level is nowhere as good as a typical Irish session player.
I do try though and a little serious effort is starting pay.
Triplets still make me stumble though and I can't work out why.
In "boys of bluehill" I manage reasonably well but in the change to triplets in a couple of bars on the second b I always lose the rythmn. Only those triplets, none of the others.
I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
Are you doing ( BCd) ?  Again for me quick change easy here your addding a button but basically climbing the scale. Practice the part starting on the A might help, it comes quickly thereafter.
Extended part of the run up to my ear.
I find it hard to fit all these notes in when the rhythm is not quite Irish hornpipe that is in my head.
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Bellows
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2019, 03:15:08 PM »

Yes.
It's easy in a run, but those three in that tune just get me.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 03:24:29 PM by Squeaky Pete »
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Re: Bellows
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2019, 03:23:27 PM »

I guess it's because I'm used to English and French stuff but I have heard a D/G player lead in an ITM session so it really shouldn't be beyond me.
Dave Mallinson has written many tutor books for D/G melodeon (but many of you know that...) and he's more than happy leading ITM sessions... :|glug
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