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Author Topic: Building a one row four stop  (Read 10345 times)

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blafleur

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #180 on: May 22, 2020, 05:37:36 PM »

My main Zydeco box is in Bb. It's very common in Louisiana.
How would you tune a Zydeco box? Similar to cajun or is it a little different tuning.

There's nothing special about Zydeco tuning, in fact there's no such thing. They are standard tuned equal temperament (not Cajun).
Usually dry but can have tremolo if required.

How commonly have you seen that, Rees?  All the zydeco accordions I've  seen were tuned same Cajun accordions except with some degree of wetness.

Rees

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #181 on: May 22, 2020, 07:32:13 PM »

Ah, perhaps it's because I've mostly been in touch with European players. Thanks for the clarification Bryan.
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Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
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boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #182 on: May 23, 2020, 12:00:31 AM »

The questionable piece looks like a mahogany... perhaps African.. Khaya or sapele.

Can you make a dent in the mystery wood by pressing your thumbnail into it ?
If you scrape the wpood with a scraper, razor blade or knife, is there a smell ?
can you make a clean end cut and post a photo of the end grain ?

You could take the French liberty and call it "acajou"....a word used to describe almost any timber that resembles mahogany.
This term comes from centuries past when the Europeans were doing huge amounts of lumbering trade in Central and So America...
specifically Brazil (Brasil). The country was named after the tree grown there. Brazil wood or pernambuco ( the highest grade of brazilwood) Chiefly used for the cloth dying trade in France but also for the timber .. principally for violin and violin family bows.  The Mahogany was for furniture and boat construction and in interiors of upscale homes, offices and churches. Another use was musical instruments. But here, brazilian rosewood took over for backs and sides in stringed instruments such as guitars and mahogany was relegated to necks. Brazilian rosewood meaning Dalbergia nigra and variants such as dalbergia spruciana. 

One of the woods harvested there came from the Cashew tree.. the wood resembles mahogany. The locals called the tree, and the nuts, and the wood, "cajou".  The term morphed into "acajou".
Thanks for that info!!  My favorite snack the cashew, so cajou it is then until further .

yes it does dent with a fingernail.
no smells detected upon scrapping. (I wish that it smelled like cashew)
and here's the end grain, two shots of the same piece ,each end shown. One showing more vertical grain.


edit to add: this is very light wood not as heavy as any mahogany I've seen.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:02:43 AM by boxcall »
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

tirpous

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #183 on: May 24, 2020, 06:50:15 PM »

Spanish cedar maybe, then. Used for cigar boxes and nylon-string guitar necks.
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melodeon

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #184 on: May 25, 2020, 03:36:19 AM »

That is where I was going.

"spanish cedar"  can look identical to the various mahoganies..
However. you can stick a finger/thumb nail into it.

Let me check the end grain on one of my end blanks.

Many mahoganies are lighter than the typical "honduras" mahogany.

If I had the skill of posting photos, I could send shot of seven different mahogany and mahogany like wood samples.
From genuine honduras to quivoca, khaya, sapele etc.

Your sample could still be mahogany.

I'll get a Spanish  cedar blank, weigh it and give you the dimensions and perhaps your could weigh your piece and figure out the volume and make a comparison.

I have a stash of it which I use for classical and flamenco guitar necks.

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boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #185 on: May 25, 2020, 12:21:23 PM »

Spanish cedar maybe, then. Used for cigar boxes and nylon-string guitar necks.
That was one of my first thoughts because of the weight and grain. I’ve only used Spanish cedar as exterior window sills, a local window/ lumber dealer sells them. Not as dark as my stock but everything else seemed similar.


@melodeon , thanks for looking into it! It would be nice to know what I have here, I’m sure someone will ask. I won’t be able to weight it for I don’t own a scale (just the ones for cooking/baking).
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

melodeon

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #186 on: May 25, 2020, 06:49:49 PM »

"melodeon , thanks for looking into it! It would be nice to know what I have here, I’m sure someone will ask. I won’t be able to weight it for I don’t own a scale (just the ones for cooking/baking)."


A kitchen scale ?  That's close enough for folk music : ).

Get back to you.. found my cedar neck box.

BTW  Martin Guitar Co. is using Spanish Cedar for necks on steel string guitars.

It is part of their list of  what they call  " select hardwood necks"
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boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #187 on: May 25, 2020, 08:14:48 PM »

"melodeon , thanks for looking into it! It would be nice to know what I have here, I’m sure someone will ask. I won’t be able to weight it for I don’t own a scale (just the ones for cooking/baking)."


A kitchen scale ?  That's close enough for folk music : ).

Get back to you.. found my cedar neck box.

BTW  Martin Guitar Co. is using Spanish Cedar for necks on steel string guitars.

It is part of their list of  what they call  " select hardwood necks"
Yes a kitchen scale:)
Interesting that it is used by Martin for the necks. So maybe not a bad choice of wood , by chance of course. I hated taking these two table leafs from the original table ( actually they where in the closet) but the owner insisted, she wanted me to toss them with some other stuff when I was working there.
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2020, 01:54:50 PM »

So the box is out being tuned.
He mention spring tension is light ( I already know) and that they should be tighter.
So what is tight enough?
Is it to seal pallets under normal playing ( no unwanted reeds speaking out of turn) or under extreme pressure like when only one bank is open, no buttons pressed and pushing hard on the bellows.
I get no movement pushing fairly hard on the bellows but some pushing really hard.
No movement under normal playing.
I may reset the treble button height at some point which should help tighten a tad.

Any other ideas?
I suppose,I could fill hole in levers and stretch the springs more  >:(
Or is bending the spring and or taking out a coil (rebend the end) an option.

On the bass side I ‘ve got it in the sweet spot and it is still light.
Technician is going to see what he can do on the bass side.

Springs on this box are as light as my Pepperpot PS which would be to light for most I think.


@melodeon
I looked up on line the weight of Spanish cedar and found 2.4lbs board foot.
My piece weighs 2.3 3/8  ( using my kitchen scale ;) the piece weighed is 22.5 long and 6.25 wide and 3/4” so not exact but close to a running board foot. Seems to be a prettty good match.
We may have a winner or narrowed things down certainly.
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

tirpous

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #189 on: May 29, 2020, 05:36:17 PM »

If you only get a slight wheezing when pushing really hard, then I would say it is tight enough.  More tension is not necessary, but may improve the keyboard feel.

Quote
Or is bending the spring and or taking out a coil (rebend the end) an option.
  Take out a coil to increase tension, lenghten spring by carefully driving a srewdriver blade between coils to fine tune and/or get same tension on all buttons.

If you have a gauge you can measure weight required to open a key directly.  If not, you can use stacks of pennies and the... kitchen scale ;) ,with the keyboard laying flat.  If I remember correctly, the weight ranges from about 100g ('light action') to 200g ('hard action').

Hurrah for Spanish cedar, it's a good wood, fun to work, stable and fairly light.

 
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tirpous

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #190 on: May 29, 2020, 06:28:53 PM »

Quote
If I remember correctly, the weight ranges from about 100g ('light action') to 200g ('hard action').

Aha, found my sheet - I knew I had data somewhere:

- Acadian 1-row: 220g, high and (too) hard action, original owner sold it on after developing tendonitis !!

- Hohner 1040: about 160g, nice comfortable action.

- Messervier 1-row: 140g, easy action.

- Eagle Brand 1-row: 200+g, firm action.

- Baldoni 2-row: 200-g, firm action.

I weighted each key, decreasing in 10g increments, until it would no longer open.  The numbers above are the minimum value at which all buttons would open consistently, but do not give the whole picture.  For example, my notes on the Baldoni (D row) say:

150g  1 keys goes down ±completely, others don't move or barely so
160g  2 keys go down (1 not consistently)
170g  about 5 keys go down
180g  6 keys go down consistently, 1 when it feels like it, and 3 still won't budge
190g  not tested - or maybe I did and results were same as 180g...
200g  all 10 keys open   

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boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #191 on: May 29, 2020, 07:26:03 PM »

If you only get a slight wheezing when pushing really hard, then I would say it is tight enough.  More tension is not necessary, but may improve the keyboard feel.

Quote
Or is bending the spring and or taking out a coil (rebend the end) an option.
  Take out a coil to increase tension, lenghten spring by carefully driving a srewdriver blade between coils to fine tune and/or get same tension on all buttons.

If you have a gauge you can measure weight required to open a key directly.  If not, you can use stacks of pennies and the... kitchen scale ;) ,with the keyboard laying flat.  If I remember correctly, the weight ranges from about 100g ('light action') to 200g ('hard action').

Hurrah for Spanish cedar, it's a good wood, fun to work, stable and fairly light.
Thank you for the info!
And for your Spanish cedar suggestion (:)
It sands very nicely also and takes a finish well.

I’ll have to see what can be done when I receive it, later.
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

mselic

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #192 on: May 29, 2020, 10:19:29 PM »

Quote
If you have a gauge you can measure weight required to open a key directly.

What kind of tool/gauge do you use to measure this? I recall wanting to find something like this a few years ago but didn’t know what to search for.
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malcolmbebb

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #193 on: May 29, 2020, 10:59:20 PM »


What kind of tool/gauge do you use to measure this? I recall wanting to find something like this a few years ago but didn’t know what to search for.

Try Correx Gauge. I can't remember the generic name, but that will get you started. Mine is 0-1000grams.
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tirpous

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #194 on: May 30, 2020, 12:54:22 AM »

Quote
What kind of tool/gauge do you use to measure this? I recall wanting to find something like this a few years ago but didn’t know what to search for.

It doesn't have to be complicated.  The apparatus I used for my measurements was a small bottle (filled with various amounts of water), a small bit of Staedler eraser (allows bottle weight to be on just 1 button) and the infamous kitchen scale.

Since then, someone told me about 'force', 'pressure' or 'tension' gauge as described by Malcom but I coudn't find anything affordable (say $30) and readily available. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 01:08:00 AM by tirpous »
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boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #195 on: May 30, 2020, 01:55:09 AM »

Quote
What kind of tool/gauge do you use to measure this? I recall wanting to find something like this a few years ago but didn’t know what to search for.



Since then, someone told me about 'force', 'pressure' or 'tension' gauge as described by Malcom but I coudn't find anything affordable (say $30) and readily available. 
How about a finger or four ;) there cheap !
I wouldn’t say that I’m as accurate as a gauge but I can feel slight differences and I’m sure most players could.
I like your simple bottle method though and I do have a kitchen scale ;D
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D

tirpous

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #196 on: May 30, 2020, 04:01:17 AM »

Quote
I wouldn’t say that I’m as accurate as a gauge but I can feel slight differences and I’m sure most players could.

Agreed, and that's why I qualified my numbers with 'easy action', 'firm action', etc...  But these feelings are subjective (my firm action may be comfortable-easy to you, say ), while numbers are objective.
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mselic

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #197 on: May 30, 2020, 04:57:31 AM »

Up until now I’ve just used a screwdriver or other similar device of a certain weight to get the tension across all the buttons the same. If the weight of the tool on the button is just enough to get it to begin to sink (for example, if that’s the amount of tension I like) then I’ll adjust the springs on the remaining buttons to match.
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4 stops: Melodie D, Beltuna G, HA114 A and G
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boxcall

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Re: Building a one row four stop
« Reply #198 on: May 30, 2020, 09:16:48 PM »

Quote
If I remember correctly, the weight ranges from about 100g ('light action') to 200g ('hard action').

Aha, found my sheet - I knew I had data somewhere:

- Acadian 1-row: 220g, high and (too) hard action, original owner sold it on after developing tendonitis !!

- Hohner 1040: about 160g, nice comfortable action.

- Messervier 1-row: 140g, easy action.

- Eagle Brand 1-row: 200+g, firm action.

- Baldoni 2-row: 200-g, firm action.

I weighted each key, decreasing in 10g increments, until it would no longer open.  The numbers above are the minimum value at which all buttons would open consistently, but do not give the whole picture.  For example, my notes on the Baldoni (D row) say:

150g  1 keys goes down ±completely, others don't move or barely so
160g  2 keys go down (1 not consistently)
170g  about 5 keys go down
180g  6 keys go down consistently, 1 when it feels like it, and 3 still won't budge
190g  not tested - or maybe I did and results were same as 180g...
200g  all 10 keys open
In your last response I totally get it it is personal.

So as it turns out a cup of flour is about 200g I was weighing out flour for pizza dough on you know!
My IPhone 5s  with a protective case ( I do need to upgrade but probably not because it does all I need it to do) weighs in at about 180g which was just about right to open buttons on my Beltuna, all but a couple not completely so maybe some could be fine tuned. On my Hohner it had no problem.

Edit to add I’ll try out my Baldoni later
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:19:14 PM by boxcall »
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Hohner 1040 C, Beltuna one row four stop D, O'Byrne Dewitt/ Baldoni bros. D/C#, Paolo soprani "pepperpot" one row D
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