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Author Topic: Press and Draw  (Read 2451 times)

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Chris Rayner

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2019, 01:02:47 PM »

The tongue can generally move faster than the leg!

Oh splendid.  I shall steal this for future use.  Not sure how, but it has strong appeal.🙂
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Elderly amateur musician hoping to stave off dementia by learning to play the melodeon.  Main instrument a Tommy, also D/G and G/C pokerworks, and a G/C Benny.  A single row 2 stop Hohner, and a new addition to the free reedery, a rather splendid Paolo Soprani four voice 120 bass c-system chromatic button accordion.  Very shiny, very loud, and about the same size and weight as a small car.

Peadar

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2019, 01:06:27 PM »

Quote
A “bothy box.”

That's a good analogy apart from bothy music being on the Doric (English) speaking side of the pale.

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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2019, 03:36:30 AM »

As a style of playing what exactly does "Press and Draw" mean?
It's a term used by B/C players, or rather a term used since the B/C style became popular in Irish music, to refer to anyone playing a box with a D row.  ;)
There were plenty of P&D players playing B/C boxes as well!
In fact that would have contributed to a general view that P&D is inferior as a technique to B/C proper.
In a session situation, a box player playing along the C row would have made life unpleasant for fiddle and flute
players.
Nowadays, as C#/D boxes are more readily available, it is not a problem.
But still, in certain quarters P&D is regarded as being a poor relation to full-blown B/C style.
Some will argue that it is fit only for those who can't hack B/C, or are lazy, or lack talent or ambition.
There are even those who will never take P&D seriously, even though there are some excellent P&D players
around.

Regardless of which key your box is tune in, it means playing as if in one-row style, i.e. no cross-rowing. If your box has more than one row, then just play a tune using a single row. if you have a one-row box, then you will be playing in P&D style anyway because there's no other way of doing it!
That doesn't really fit with the Irish method of P&D. Making use of the second row to facilitate ornamentation,
playing in different keys, smooth playing, etc., is integral to the system.
A one row box in Ireland is a melodeon. You wouldn't refer to a melodeon player as a P&D player.

....I came across the term in a quotation of Jackie Daly  describing John J. Kimmel's style of playing.
I hesitate to disagree with the great Jackie Daly, but I would not regard John J. Kimmel as a P&D player.
He was a (brilliant) melodeon player as far as I am concerned.

.... So the term is of pretty limited usefulness IMO!  :|glug
I don't mean to take this one sentence out of context (I wouldn't disagree with your analysis), but I believe the
term is still very relevant today, even though we have moved on a long way from the days of auld fellas playing
along the C row on a B/C box.
A P&D player can be a very different animal to a B/C player. Their respective repertoires will usually be very different (once you make your way beyond the session standards).
You can tell a lot about the person on the basis of which system they play.

...I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music...
Chreid Séamus Ennis nach feidir ceol gaelach na h-Eireann a chasadh í gceart gan tuiscint a bheith agat ar an teanga ghaeilge.
Tá dlúthcheangal idir na foinn mhála agus na h-amhráin ar an sean-nós go h-áthrithe a deir sé.

 
 
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2019, 05:14:59 AM »

... You can't really do the Joe Burke thing on a C#/D...

True Richard. Very true. If you are trying to play your C#/D in the same keys as Joe plays on his B/C that is.
But it's a very different story if you play B/C fingering on your C#/D, as the brilliant and very underrated
box player Larry Egan demonstrates here on an old C#/D Paolo. Enjoy.
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smiley

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2019, 06:55:09 AM »


You can tell a lot about the person on the basis of which system they play.


"Every cripple has his own way of walking"  - Brendan Behan
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richard.fleming

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2019, 07:32:50 AM »

...I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music...
Chreid Séamus Ennis nach feidir ceol gaelach na h-Eireann a chasadh í gceart gan tuiscint a bheith agat ar an teanga ghaeilge.
Tá dlúthcheangal idir na foinn mhála agus na h-amhráin ar an sean-nós go h-áthrithe a deir sé.
For the benefit of Sassenachs etc 'Seamus Ennis believed that you can't play Irish music properly if you don't understand the Irish language, and he also says there's a close connection between slow airs and traditional songs sung in Irish.' (Correct me Pearse if I've missed some nuances). I've no problem with the second part, and I can see the attraction of the first part. You could argue that you can't be properly Irish if you don't understand the language. But I think a lot of musicians would dispute that view.
As for the Larry Egan clip, can anyone tell me what key that is? I can play it easily enough on a C#/D and it's a long time since I played B/C. It doesn't feel particularly like 'B/C fingering' to me, just C#/D in a key I can't name.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 07:37:57 AM by richard.fleming »
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Rees

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2019, 08:22:20 AM »

...I am however much less certain of the strength of the historical relationship of the Gaelic to Irish Traditional Music...

As for the Larry Egan clip, can anyone tell me what key that is? I can play it easily enough on a C#/D and it's a long time since I played B/C. It doesn't feel particularly like 'B/C fingering' to me, just C#/D in a key I can't name.

I think it's G sharp, so it would be played in A position but on the outside row.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2019, 08:31:14 AM »

It's on the D row on my box, Rees,  with just one F# from the outside row, whatever that makes it
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Stiamh

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2019, 10:54:11 AM »

The tune is normally played in G. Play it B/C style on a C#/D and it comes out in A.
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Barlow

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2019, 02:39:01 PM »

(Maire Ni Chaoimh, PhD thesis, 2010)

https://ulir.ul.ie/bitstream/handle/10344/1616/2010_Ni%20Chaoimh.pdf?sequence=6

A bit off-topic:
That's a hefty document and there is within some lovely information and references. I note that B/C is always written as 'B and C' whereas C#/D is written: C#/D. Is there any reason for this? (I couldn't find any in the text)
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Stiamh

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2019, 06:04:01 PM »

I note that B/C is always written as 'B and C' whereas C#/D is written: C#/D. Is there any reason for this?

I don't know how general it is in Ireland, but it is certainly Daly-speak - he invariably says "B'n'C" (but never "C-sharp'n'D"). And since Máire spent quite a bit of time with Jackie in the 1990s at least, she may well have got the expression from him.
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tirpous

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2019, 07:50:36 PM »

Quote
I don't know how general it is in Ireland, but it is certainly Daly-speak

So it is used on a Daly basis ...  8)
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Barlow

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2019, 01:30:51 AM »

I note that B/C is always written as 'B and C' whereas C#/D is written: C#/D. Is there any reason for this?

I don't know how general it is in Ireland, but it is certainly Daly-speak - he invariably says "B'n'C" (but never "C-sharp'n'D"). And since Máire spent quite a bit of time with Jackie in the 1990s at least, she may well have got the expression from him.

Apologies for drifting into etymology, and perhaps my OCD:
Maybe it is a three syllable thing. I have never consciously heard the instrument called 'B and C'. Always just B/C. It's just that the phrase is so prominent in the writing it is as if it is intentional to make a point, particularly when it is so often in the same sentence as 'C#/D' .

(Anyway...I shall now go and concentrate on actually playing some music, rather than be distracted by such matters)

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Theo

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2019, 08:02:22 AM »

I’ve often heard “B and C” when players speak about their box,  but only from Irish people or players in the Irish tradition.  I’ve also heard “C and D” in talking about C#D, though that is not common.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2019, 10:57:31 AM by Theo »
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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2019, 10:36:41 AM »

It's a function of the Irish language. It doesn't make sense to say B/C in Irish. Properly it's B agus C.
As a consequence, upon translation it becomes B and C.

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Pearse Rossa

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2019, 01:26:59 PM »

Seamus Ennis believed that you can't play Irish music properly if you don't understand the Irish language, and he also says there's a close connection between slow airs and traditional songs sung in Irish.' (Correct me Pearse if I've missed some nuances). I've no problem with the second part, and I can see the attraction of the first part.

Séamus Ennis believed it was imperative that one should have an understanding of the Irish language in order to do the playing of slow airs proper justice. He particularly referenced the playing of Conamara sean-nós songs.
Tony MacMahon, who was tutored by Ennis, would hold the same belief.
Evidently, Joe Burke also gives credence to this viewpoint.
The following is an excerpt from his website biography;
'Joe traces the sources and melodic forms of Irish Music back to the rhythms and cadences of Irish speech and language, and feels that they have an intimate relationship with each other'.
All of these musicians were/are eminent persons of authority in the Irish tradition.
I happen to agree with them.

Quote
You could argue that you can't be properly Irish if you don't understand the language. But I think a lot of musicians would dispute that view.
I'm sure they would.


 
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george garside

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Re: Press and Draw
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2019, 05:05:06 PM »

Whatever! but speaking as one who 'faces both ways' it is good to have some 'semitone' discussion on the forum!

george  ;D :||: :|||:
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