Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[george garside]

is that more or less the same as saying don't attempt to play a tune until you can hum or whistle it?

g

[Tone Dumb Greg]

is that more or less the same as saying don't attempt to play a tune until you can hum or whistle it?

g

No, George. It's more about what you actually do while you're playng. It's all about focus and recovery from mistakes. Being able to hum it is just the start.

[playandteach]

As you've asked, of course there is no one way to focus. It could be making sure the melody has direction to it, it could be listening to the ensemble around you for balance, style and pulse conformity. It could be 'eyes up' playing for spontaneity. Etc.
But what I mean in this case is the cliff edge between alert playing and auto pilot.
Auto pilot can be quite reliable and safe. Alert playing can be quite reliable and safe. But that moment when you realise that you are on auto pilot is risk infused, the brain power required to get back on track turns off the auto pilot before the alert playing has kicked in.
I do find that making sure you are communicating musically is as good as it gets, because you can't really communicate in auto pilot.
If you've ever found yourself in a classical situation when you have to count bars rest for a particularly difficult entry you can find yourself saying concentrate on counting, concentrate on counting, until you lose count by concentrating on concentrating.
By the way, none of these points come from my melodeon playing, but from the clarinet job. I like that, sounds like the Italian Job. Either way, you end up hanging halfway off a cliff edge.

[Chris Ryall]

To join the "in your head" sub thread

Absolutely and utterly. NEVER let a mistake phase you and STRICTLY do not stop as that amplifies the mistake. The instument is very forgiving in any case played on row.  Even played across, you might merely have done a "variation". 

There is one forbidden note, = "major" eg C# for C when playing in A minor, but you almost have to target those on our instrument. Even then keep going. Provided the rhythm continues all will be forgiven, audiences and the ear forget.

All other bum notes … aren't bum. They are imrovisations, ,albeit accidental ones 😉 The coolest recovery is to repeat the same note next time! But all are music legal, be they b9, b5, #6 (aolian => dorian!), even a major 7 in a minor tune, that's just melodic minor!

And yes, playing C for C# in and A major tune is … just fine. It's the whole basis of Blues 😎

So keep rhythm, don't ever stop, and be fearless. The melody and rhythm of a piece are vastly more important than its notes.

[george garside]

is that more or less the same as saying don't attempt to play a tune until you can hum or whistle it?

g

No, George. It's more about what you actually do while you're playng. It's all about focus and recovery from mistakes. Being able to hum it is just the start.

Not only I s it just the start it is, to me, an ingredient that is an essential starting point for 'by ear' players and  also of considerable help to readers.  Focus and recovery from mistakes  relies on two things.
1. knowing how the tune should be played ( hence the hum or whistle thing) without which you wouldn't know if you made a mistake!

2. having a sort of aural 'feed back loop' in operation throughout the proceedings  i.e   memory - fingers - ears - memory - fingers etc etc  so not only can 'mistaakes' be instantly noted  but also the overall sound i.e. rhythm, dynamics,phrasing, etc be monitored constantly and altered/improved as necessary.  If playing 'dance' music it can also help to mentally 'visualise' dancers dancing !

etc etc etc

george

[george garside]

To join the "in your head" sub thread

Absolutely and utterly. NEVER let a mistake phase you and STRICTLY do not stop as that amplifies the mistake. The instument is very forgiving in any case played on row.  Even played across, you might merely have done a "variation". 

There is one forbidden note, = "major" eg C# for C when playing in A minor, but you almost have to target those on our instrument. Even then keep going. Provided the rhythm continues all will be forgiven, audiences and the ear forget.

All other bum notes … aren't bum. They are imrovisations, ,albeit accidental ones 😉 The coolest recovery is to repeat the same note next time! But all are music legal, be they b9, b5, #6 (aolian => dorian!), even a major 7 in a minor tune, that's just melodic minor!

And yes, playing C for C# in and A major tune is … just fine. It's the whole basis of Blues 😎

So keep rhythm, don't ever stop, and be fearless. The melody and rhythm of a piece are vastly more important than its notes.

totally agree
george

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Back in the day, I used to be a juggler. If you're giving a performance, dropping a ball or club is generally thought to be the worst thing you can do. My approach was to learn how to recover the object without breaking rhythm. I used to drop stuff on purpose. The effect was great. A groan of disappointment when you dropped it. An enthusiastic cheer when you picked it up, or kicked it up, off the floor with the balls etc. still being thrown around.

I sometimes wonder if the same approach would work in music. Trouble is, I haven't managed to become proficient at playing wrong on purpose.

[george garside]

in the world of folk/trad music  the trick is to play it (the same version of ) wrong thrice  at which point provided it sound ok you can treat it as a new arrangement.

Can anybody honestly say that the way they are playing tune thought up but probably not written down in 1745 or thereabouts is the 'correct' version. 

To me the likely  scenario is of ,say, a fiddle player going to a ceilidh in the next village  and hearing a tune he particularly likes. Bearing in mind that he may have consumed a more than adequate amount of 'falling over juice''  he wakes up the following morning  gets his fiddle out  and has a go at playing the previous nights tune he particulary liked but due to the powers of falling over juice he may play it somewhat differently although still being a reasonable resemblance - he passes HIS version on to his mates and that becomes a new arrangement ---then the process repeats itself ad infinitum over the years!

george

Back in the day, I used to be a juggler. If you're giving a performance, dropping a ball or club is generally thought to be the worst thing you can do. My approach was to learn how to recover the object without breaking rhythm. I used to drop stuff on purpose. The effect was great. A groan of disappointment when you dropped it. An enthusiastic cheer when you picked it up, or kicked it up, off the floor with the balls etc. still being thrown around.

I sometimes wonder if the same approach would work in music. Trouble is, I haven't managed to become proficient at playing wrong on purpose.

[george garside]

To join the "in your head" sub thread

Absolutely and utterly. NEVER let a mistake phase you and STRICTLY do not stop as that amplifies the mistake. The instument is very forgiving in any case played on row.  Even played across, you might merely have done a "variation". 

 
So keep rhythm, don't ever stop, and be fearless. The melody and rhythm of a piece are vastly more important than its notes.

definitely agree!
george

[Dick Rees]

IME the better approach is to make the LH the foundation and play the RH over that.  You may miss a note or two in the melody side, but  the drive and pulse of the piece should just keep going.  So much of the life of a piece is how the melody sits over the comp.  The "melody first, then add the LH" approach is often the longer road and filled with potholes.

[playandteach]

I can see that working. Also as I have an appalling memory, I often find that I need to know the left hand - especially where there are options - better.

[george garside]

I think the 'drive and pulse'   of a tune must be inherent in the way the melody/treble is played  and that the bass can then be used if required to add an additional layer of rhythm to the proceedings  ( and carefully chosen delicate pulsing of the bellwos can if required add a third layer of rhythm.

Strange how fiddle players, flute players  and other melody only instruments   can be played with great drive and pulse  without any bass whatsoever!  When playing solo for rapper I always used a single voice lilly  and played treble only using it as a sort of imitation fiddle. 

george

 
 

[Chris Ryall]

IME the better approach is to make the LH the foundation and play the RH over that.  You may miss a note or two in the melody side, but  the drive and pulse of the piece should just keep going.  So much of the life of a piece is how the melody sits over the comp.  The "melody first, then add the LH" approach is often the longer road and filled with potholes.

I am on record here with the same advice.  I plan all tunes from left to right, as it were.   

Basically you can work out .. whatever fancy fingering you like on right  .. try to add cords and .. they may not be there! A 12+ bass is more forgiving, but even then it pays to work left=>right (I am on an 18 bass).

It isn't rocket science.  Sing or hum the tune in a melodeon friendly key.  If major, is wise to notice if it has a flat, or 'blue' 7th as that forces you to D on G row or A on D row "mixolydian" mode.  Sing or hum away ... try to find a nice left hand bass run.  It comes rapidly with practice and the magic of melodeon design will almost always mean that there is a fluid right hand line to play the actual tune.

Minors: the 6th note of the scale is the key to planning. If an Em tune has a C# (raised 6th 'dorian') then it will virtually always play completely on  D row against Em/D chords.  The odd A works too

If the Em tune has  C natural then it is in the G row 'box of notes'.  You will need to cross your 3rd finger to pull C when it comes up. Your chords will be Em D and C.  Yes, that is to say that there are 2 types of minor in western European folk music 

[Dick Rees]

I think the 'drive and pulse'   of a tune must be inherent in the way the melody/treble is played {against the bass}and that the bass can then be used if required to add an additional layer of rhythm to the proceedings  ( and carefully chosen delicate pulsing of the bellwos can if required add a third layer of rhythm.

Strange how fiddle players, flute players  and other melody only instruments   can be played with great drive and pulse  without any bass whatsoever!  When playing solo for rapper I always used a single voice lilly  and played treble only using it as a sort of imitation fiddle. 

george

Good morning ( 10AM CDT in Minnesota ).

I've taken the liberty of inserting a bit in your post above to square up my original intent regarding the function of the bass and it's role in supporting the pulse and drive.  My view is that there are constants and variants, the interaction of which generates pulse and drive.  The "melody only" instruments generate their pulse and drive in relation to the beat which the bass or LH actually states whereas the
flutes et al use the implied beat. 

It is the basic function of the LH to state the basic rhythm which is assumed or subsumed by the single-voiced "melody" instruments in developing drive/pulse...possibly with the breath or bow working against the articulation.

Thanks for an interesting discussion.