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Author Topic: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons  (Read 803 times)

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Larry Powers

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C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« on: June 20, 2019, 04:16:35 PM »

I am considering the purchase of a Lilly as a travel instrument.  It is light and small and I like the sound will enough.  My major area of interest is Quebecois music so fiddle tunes in D, G and A.  I currently have a Bouchard box in D with the accidentals G#,C,D#,G#.  Because I have this setup I think the Lilly I purchase would be a c#/d or a d/c#.  I understand that the Lilly will not have the Quebecois sound but I am buying it for travel and I already have a great Quebecois box for the sound.  I don't have a good enough understanding of the diatonic accordion to know if there is an optimum configuration for an 8 button bass box in one of these two configurations.

I have looked at the two c#/d layouts that are on this forum and I have read through this discussion:  http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,1681.msg15912.html#msg15912 but it still leaves me with some questions. 

Being a single row player and planning to approach this box at first as a D box with accidentals, I minimally would like to duplicate the two button bass that one would have on a D box, a G box and an A box.  In my mind this would mean for key of D having a D push and A pull bass.  And I think for G having a D push G pull bass and for A an A push and E pull.  Am I correct that that this would work or am I missing something?  The modern bass layout for C#/D seems to cover this.  Would there be a better layout for playing in the fashion I am considering? 

If wanting to play in true half step style on a c#/d box would the same 8 button layout work or is there a better 8 button layout?

Is there any reason one would want different bass layouts for  C#/D vs D/C#?

Thanks for the help on this.




Edited to correct the mistake pointed out by Stiamh on the chords for D.





« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 05:26:01 PM by Larry Powers »
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Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 05:03:55 PM »

Being a single row player and planning to approach this box at first as a D box with accidentals, I minimally would like to duplicate the two button bass that one would have on a D box, a G box and an A box.  In my mind this would mean for key of D having a D pull and A push bass.  And I think for G having a D push G pull bass and for A an A push and E pull.

Hi Larry, did you get the push/pull bit mixed up there? I think you meant D push A pull. You have that on the standard layout on one pair of buttons.

On the standard layout (as opposed to the "modern" one) you have what you want for G, namely D/G on one button pair. And on both standard and modern you another button pair with A push E pull.

I don't think the modern layout is of much use unless you intend to do a lot of B/C style playing, i.e. playing tunes in E major. As I have said more times than I like to think about on here, I'd put G/G on the inner bottom pair, to give you a G push. If you really want to stick with one-row style basses though, D/G might suit you better.

Quote
Is there any reason one would want different bass layouts for  C#/D vs D/C#?

Can't think of any. 8 basses on a semitone box is limiting. On a C#/D or D/C#, the standard layout gives you a really good set of chords for tunes in key signatures with two or three sharps. You may not immediately see the usefulness of F#/B, but I wouldn't change them for anything. As you get more adventurous using the basses (once you step outside the one-row paradigm  ;) ) they will prove incredibly useful. And not just for playing in B minor!


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Larry Powers

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 05:31:36 PM »

Hi Larry, did you get the push/pull bit mixed up there? I think you meant D push A pull. You have that on the standard layout on one pair of buttons.

My mistake.  Had it written out correctly on my diagram but typed it wrong.  Thanks for the feedback.
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Larry Powers

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2019, 12:20:20 PM »

This is a layout for a converted Liliput.  The two full rows are 4th button start and the layout looks OK to me.  Does the layout of the half row make sense?  For a c#/d should the half row typically supply reversals since the accidentals are on the c# row?
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richard.fleming

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2019, 09:05:03 AM »

Why would you need accidentals on a semi-tone box? Is the idea to make more basses available?
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Eshed

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2019, 09:09:41 AM »

Why would you need accidentals on a semi-tone box? Is the idea to make more basses available?
Yes, hence why they are reversals (notes that exist on your scales but are on the other direction) and not accidentals (notes that don't exist on your scales).
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I'm playing all the wrong notes but not necessarily in the wrong order.

richard.fleming

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2019, 06:51:54 AM »

Why would you need accidentals on a semi-tone box? Is the idea to make more basses available?
Yes, hence why they are reversals (notes that exist on your scales but are on the other direction) and not accidentals (notes that don't exist on your scales).
In that case it might be easier, from a semitone box player's perspective, to have more basses. I wonder if the idea of accidentals on a helper row, which are used to try to overcome the limitations of boxes like the DG, is spreading here to providing reversals on a helper row to enable playing more basses, when it would be more logical simply to have more basses. If you have got your head round playing tunes in D minor or D dorian, for example, to find a reversed note out of that scale pattern in order to play a bass together with it is much more difficult  both mentally and physically than simply playing that bass, if it exists, which would be possible with, say a mini stradella bass set up, where every note is, as it were, reversible. If you want to be able to play more bass, get a box with more basses! (Call me old fashioned! ;))
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 06:57:29 AM by richard.fleming »
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Theo

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2019, 08:34:20 AM »

The half row is a bit of a red herring in this topic.  The original question was a about a Castagnari Lilly - a 2 row box,  and then there was a comment about a Hohner Liliput,  which has taken the discussion in a different direction.  The Liliput May have been chosen for its small size, rather than for the third row. 
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richard.fleming

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2019, 08:42:41 AM »

This forum quite likes red herrings.
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Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Larry Powers

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2019, 03:54:38 PM »

The forum likes red herrings so much that even if the OP does not provide them the group will.   ;D

My original question was mostly about gaining some understanding about the c#/d system with 8 basses.  The Lilly was only mentioned in passing as I like the sound but also want a small travel box.  I then saw the Liliput that had been converted to c#/d.  It appears to be close to the c#/d traditional layout that is shown on Melodeon.net but it is a 4th button start.  I also noted that the half row was very different from the half row on Stimah's Serenelli.  Maybe the half row wasn't converted from the original tuning and is useless.  I don't know.  Since I would have to mail order the Liliput I want to understand as much as possible about the layout before doing so.

Currently my only melodeon is a Bouchard 10+4 in D.  I am looking for a travel box so as not to put excess wear an tear on the Bouchard but would also like to explore having more basses.  I think a c#/d or a d/c# box would be good choice since the Bouchard is basically a d/c# with a very abbreviated c# row. 

I will be at a music camp in Quebec this week where Steve will be teaching along with many other talanted teachers will be teaching.  Two of them are known for using d/c# boxes.  Hopefully I can come away with some good information on this topic.
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Larry Powers

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 08:16:57 PM »

Had a great time at Camp Souches à Oreilles this past week.  I got to see some of the best melodeon players there are and I met Steve who is a great (and patient) teacher.  I was able to pick his brain in person and have all the information I need for now on this subject.  If there is another melodeon in my future it will likely be a d/c# but I also was able to confirmed what I already knew my Bouchard melodeon is more melodeon then I will probably master in my life time.  A fact that makes it hard to catch a case of MAD.

Thanks Steve.
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Stiamh

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 10:39:39 PM »

Hi Larry! It was great to meet you and your good lady. The classes were good fun, and you all worked very hard. Just keep at it now (:)

I am happy that you got to meet your maker, as it were, the amazing [drum roll] !!André Bouchard!! [pause for the now obligatory enthusiastic acclamation from the Souches audience] and learn about some of the many things he devotes time to other than building accordions.

À la prochaine !
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george garside

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2019, 11:52:36 PM »

speaking as a semitone and 4th apart player a  standard DG lilly is capable of playing in D.G and A and will have decent bass for D and G  and enough to do a bit of something with in A.  The lack of a G#  in the lower octave  for playing in A is not  a great problem as it is fairly easy to fake or simply omit  in most situations

george

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Larry Powers

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Re: C#/D Bass With Only 8 Bass Buttons
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2019, 02:06:09 AM »

I have looked at d/g and a/d boxes and they do have something to offer but my Bouchard box is a single row in D with a few extra buttons that give me a G#4 and a G#5, a D#5 and a C5.  That is a lot of flexibility to play in D, A and G and someday I will figure out the use for the C5.  I think for Quebecois music this box has all the capability needed for playing most fiddle tunes in Quebecois style.  Many good Quebecois players use no bass or used it very sparingly.  For the style of playing I aspire to I have stumbled onto the nearly perfect melodeon.
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