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[Theo]

Richard that’s pretty much what I was trying to say.  You’ve made it much clearer.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

If you are going to end up playing a semitone box I have been told that you are better off starting with it. I don't play one, so I can't give you first hand advice.

Maybe you need to get hold of one and try it.                   

[Steve_freereeder]

Much Irish music is playable on a D/G melodeon. Perhaps not always in a strict contemporary Irish style that Richard might like, with semitone rolls and things...

That sounds like a limited ambition. What if you want to play any Irish tune you happen to like  (not just 'much') and in a contemporary Irish style, then? The above is pretty much a tacit admission that the DG box will eventually let you down as your playing ambitions develop.

Yes - I think I agree with you there if you want to play only in 'a contemporary Irish style'.  Then go for a semitone tuned box, or a one-row. The latter (as has been observed previously) gives a great grounding for many playing styles, not just Irish. And I know that there are wonderful Irish masters of the one-row.

But I the point I was trying to make about the D/G is that it is a wonderful compromise, fits just about all genres, sort of box. All tuning systems have their strong and weak points, but the D/G has a lot going for it.

[ChrisP]

Although the assumption has been that this is Irish music in an English context, the OP has not actually said so, and I suppose the advice may be different depending on location?

[boxer]

D/G takes a lot of un-learning.  If you want to play Irish music in the Irish style, go straight to B/C.  It's  not an easy system, so expect to have to put a lot of time in on practice.

[george garside]

Much Irish music is playable on a D/G melodeon. Perhaps not always in a strict contemporary Irish style that Richard might like, with semitone rolls and things...

That sounds like a limited ambition. What if you want to play any Irish tune you happen to like  (not just 'much') and in a contemporary Irish style, then? The above is pretty much a tacit admission that the DG box will eventually let you down as your playing ambitions develop.

I play some Irish 'tunes 'on DG but in an English/Scottish style . I do not play Irish 'music' with its itegral rolls and other wonderful twiddles.   The same applies to my BC playing  as I started on a BC before DG boxes were invented  and at that time nobody told me they were ' irish' boxes!   For 'English' sessions which are mostly in D or G with perhaps a bit of A  I use a DG box  'cos if I suddenly started playing in F, E, Bb F# or whatever I would be on my own!

Dave Mallinson  is the only bloke I know who played  lots of Irish 'music' on a DG box.

so my vote for a starter box would be DG unless the aim is tp play in full blown Irish sessions  at speed with all the twiddles in which case BC or C#D the one to go for.

george

[Stiamh]

Sebwin (talking to you here and not those who are arguing amongst themselves): rolls (five-note rolls with a final grace note a semitone below the main note) are NOT the issue in my opinion. If we are going to talk about "contemporary Irish style", well a lot of the top younger players in Ireland just don't use them. (1950s Irish style would perhaps be more accurate.  )

That is not why I suggested you consider a C#/D. With a D/G you are pretty much restricted to the repertoire you can play on your D tin whistle (without being a virtuoso on the whistle). I didn't want that restriction. You might be OK with it. But while you can slip a C whistle into your bag and take it to sessions, you don't want to be buying and lugging around multiple boxes.

The reason I didn't suggest B/C is (based on my observations on internet forums) that the drop-out rate is very high and (based on my observations of people I have met who took up B/C as an adult) many of those that don't drop out don't get very good at it. If you are confident of your sticking power and learning abilities, you can take your chances with B/C.

[Steve C.]

Over on this side of the Pond, one would almost certainly say, starting out, get a BC or C#D if wanting to play Irish style.
Even sellers of boxes divide them up (viz: Button Box website).

[Anahata]

If you're not sure, then C♯/D seems a better choice than B/C. At least tunes played in D are largely the same as on a D/G box, and if you switched later to D/G, playing in G is like playing on D but on the other row (to a first approximation only, obviously)

Is is possible to play both chromatic (e.g. B/C or C♯/D) and D/G but they are different instruments and you have more learning to do. I have, at various times, played piano accordion, Anglo concertina, B/C/C♯ accordion and D/G melodeon, in that order with a lot of overlap (and single row melodeons a lot later, likewise C/F)

[Sebastian Trudgian]

Hi Everyone,

Firstly, thank you so much for your kind advice and comments!

It is extremely helpful (as a beginner with very limited knowledge) to get so much information from people who clearly deeply understand their instrument and music and are happy to take the time to share their knowledge with newbies!
Can I also thank the kind member who PM’d me offering to help. Apologies I’ve tried a number of times to reply, but the forum produces an error when I do. I think it’s best I decline purely due to distance but thanks.

Just to answer an earlier question, I am very early into my musical journey...
Please don’t shoot me, but when I say Irish music, I mean I think I love the rhythm and lilt of Irish reels and jigs, but have no idea if I’m playing/hearing an English style or not.
I play everything (the 40 or so tunes I’ve learnt, Cooleys Reel, Congress Reel, Out on the Ocean etc) with my tin whistle so everything is in D or G hence I guess I don’t know if I’m missing missing the other notes or not.

Does this sound like a sensible plan?:
-   Keep going through my melodeon book (Beginners… David Mallinson), with my rented Castagnari just to see if I still love melodeons as a concept after a month
-   Research a lot more about Irish music and try to understand what they are/what the pros/cons are between DG, BC, CF and CD melodeons.
-   If I think I like “English style Irish music” or may also want to play non-Irish music see if I can get a discount (roughly how much?) to convert the reeds to a standard layout and keep the Castagnari. If not, give it back as the layout will make it difficult to re-sell if I don't get on with it.
-   If I think I like the pure Irish style, see if anyone local is selling a get a Honer Polka or similar in C#D
-       Don't bother with the scarletti eitherway.

Again, thank you sincerely for your help and your patience with my current level of understanding. Also sorry for the late replies it’s tricky getting online at work sometimes!

Sebastian

[richard.fleming]

Sebwin (talking to you here and not those who are arguing amongst themselves..

I tried to avoid that. I may have argued in the past, but just now I was trying to give impartial advice. If he'd said 'I want to play English dance tunes and to play for Morris dancing' I'd have had no hesitation in recommending a DG box. But, really, not for Irish.

[Pat.]

 I play a D/G as well as a B/C  box  ,not just playing tunes but playing traditional Irish music ,I played in Irish pubs  for years  I like both, B/C is great for getting round the corners and rolls of course, and I know what I am doing with it. I also play Irish music on the D/G as it has great rythem and the old push and draw sound is great,  nothing wrong with a D/G for  Irish  music as far as I am concerned, its in the fingers[I have to say though that the inside G row is a bit of a screamer and the B/C can be played chromatically but most tunes are in A/ D/ OR G anyway.

[Gena Crisman]

when I say Irish music, I mean I think I love the rhythm and lilt of Irish reels and jigs, but have no idea if I’m playing/hearing an English style or not.

Well, perhaps, I'd consider really adding the point on your plan to try and work out which one of those things is calling to you. Think about where you hear the music you like - it sounds like it's the sessions you go to in your city, but it could also be where you went on holiday, or, from music CDs. Does the chap you're renting play the kind of music you like? Does it sound the way you'd like to sound? Maybe that can help you find answers to your questions. Are there any other box players at the sessions you go to? I'd ask them what kind of instrument they're playing, too.

[Stiamh]

[I've taken so long typing this that two replies have appeared in the meantime - I think Pat agrees with what I say below.]

Sorry if I tarred you with an unjustified brush there - again - Richard.

Sebastian, I think your plan is good. You have an instrument in your hands and IMO no effort you put into learning it will go to waste even if you do at some future point change systems (with the usual caveat about going from a D box to a B/C requiring a "brain transplant" in the words of Brendan Mulkere).

Based on the tunes you mentioned, I would tend to assume that you are interested in playing Irish tunes in an authentic manner. It's not as if you have learned a bunch of Morris tunes and want to learn Irish tunes by way of variety. People who want to play in an English style don't usually start with the Congress Reel...

Where I would disagree somewhat with Richard is the unsuitability of the D/G for those particular tunes.

If you want a (very) contemporary Irish style on a D/G, here's Tim Edey, some years ago, "warming up". (I would rate Tim as one of those musicians who is "differently abled" from the rest of us. In other words don't expect that some round number of hours of work will get you to this level of proficiency.)

On a slightly less stratospheric level, in a former life I played in a band in Australia with a natural (unschooled but very talented) musician (the late lamented Simon Melia) who played a D/G Pokerwork because it was all he had been able to find. He developed a lovely style of playing Irish tunes on it. Some examples here, particular tracks 2 and 4 - he'd been playing box for only about 5 years at this point.

So I don't think there's anything inherent in the D/G that will make you play Irish tunes in an un-Irish way. (Leaving aside rolls, which, in my opinion, you will lose nothing by leaving aside.) Come to that, nothing about a C#/D that will make you play in an Irish style, either. You just have to learn the musical language, and playing the whistle you are bound to do that. For me it's really the question of the limitations on the repertoire - the keys you can easily play in, and the accidentals you'll never be short of. If you like rolls, so much the better. (I do like semitone "slides" though and use them all the time, which you cannot do on a D/G.)

[Tone Dumb Greg]

I play a D/G as well as a B/C  box  ,not just playing tunes but playing traditional Irish music ,I played in Irish pubs  for years  I like both, B/C is great for getting round the corners and rolls of course, and I know what I am doing with it. I also play Irish music on the D/G as it has great rythem and the old push and draw sound is great,  nothing wrong with a D/G for  Irish  music as far as I am concerned, its in the fingers[I have to say though that the inside G row is a bit of a screamer and the B/C can be played chromatically but most tunes are in A/ D/ OR G anyway.

That begs a bunch of questions, such as:

Which did you learn first?
Was that a good way: Which would you recommend starting on?
How hard was it to learn the second system after the first?
Or, did you learn them at the same time?
Do you find BC has advantages over C#D?
Do you find it straightforward  to play at tempo in A?

[Peadar]

Seb,

If you want to understand the button accordion / melodeon in the context of Irish music I recommend Maire Ni Chaoimh's thesis " Journey Into tradition a Social history of the Irish button Accordion" - which most people on this forum think of as a two row "half step" (usually C#/D or B/C) melodeon. The Irish (Hiberno-English)_understanding of the word melodeon is strictly the one row instrument, which being cheaper was more popular  in the Gaeltacht areas for longer - itis said to have a dynamic of its own- partly because without any push and pull notes slurring of some note pairs can only be acheived by bellows waggle (not to mention the challenge of working round the notes you haven't got). The preffered key for 1 rows in Ireland is apparently D. Which makes sense for an instrument which initially became popular as a fiddle substitue.

https://ulir.ul.ie/bitstream/handle/10344/1616/2010_Ni%20Chaoimh.pdf?sequence=6

I only started with a button box (1 row) a few months ago, so perhaps I shouldn't be giving anyone advice, but to me the limitations of the 1 row are one of it's attractions- and a DG box covers the most common fiddle keys even if the G row is up at the pipistrelle bat end of the range. You will however be playing an unusual instrument in
Irish diaspora music circles. That is no bad thing-and it extends naturally from your D and G whistles.


 

[richard.fleming]

I do like semitone "slides" though and use them all the time, which you cannot do on a D/G.)

Do you have any sample recordings to show what you mean by this Stiamh?

[Stiamh]

I do like semitone "slides" though and use them all the time, which you cannot do on a D/G.)

Do you have any sample recordings to show what you mean by this Stiamh?

Not to show that in particular, no...

I just mean, as you hit a note on the inner row that you want to emphasise, you play the note a semitone below (on the outer row) very briefly, for a fraction of a fraction of second, before you hit the main note, borrowing from the time of the main note, which gives a sort of "nyip" effect. A bit like a microtonal slide into a note on fiddle. Works especially well on push notes.

I'm sure you know what I mean - doesn't every semitone player do this? Or only ex-fiddlers? 

[boxer]

like most ornaments, it's something best used sparingly.  It's so easy to do it can become a habit.  I'm presently trying to discipline myself into doing it a lot less, after listening to a recording of myself playing.

[richard.fleming]

I do like semitone "slides" though and use them all the time, which you cannot do on a D/G.)

Do you have any sample recordings to show what you mean by this Stiamh?

Not to show that in particular, no...

I just mean, as you hit a note on the inner row that you want to emphasise, you play the note a semitone below (on the outer row) very briefly, for a fraction of a fraction of second, before you hit the main note, borrowing from the time of the main note, which gives a sort of "nyip" effect. A bit like a microtonal slide into a note on fiddle. Works especially well on push notes.

I'm sure you know what I mean - doesn't every semitone player do this? Or only ex-fiddlers? 

Yes, I do it all the time, but I suppose I had been thinking of it as a sort of grace note. Well not all the time - one tries to ornament with discretion, not all the time, but I do believe that some devices that are often called ornamentation are actually integral parts of the tune. Just because some series of notes is technically a roll,  does not necessarily mean that the tune can do without it.