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[richard.fleming]

In workshops in Ireland the tutors often go off for a break and a coffee with all the other tutors and that can take some time. Meanwhile all the kids in the room play or practice different tunes simultaneously, which completely scrambles my brain. So that's one for tutors to avoid.

[nigelr]

This is a really interesting thread! A few extra things from me:

Learning by ear
I do teach in this way sometimes, as it is a very useful skill. But can be a terrifying and frustrating workshop experience for someone who normally needs written music. In a workshop situation with perhaps 20 or more participants there is always the danger that such people might get left behind others who are better at it. The tutor needs to be especially vigilant that no-one is being left out, yet also needing to maintain a reasonable pace of the workshop (not the music).

When I've been in learning by ear workshops myself, I find I can pick up a tune reasonably well, but it tends to sit in short-term memory only and in a few hours afterwards I may well have forgotten the tune unless I manage to scribble down a few lines of dots on a scrap of paper. So when teaching a 'by ear' workshop, I always provide written music to give out at the end, so that it is a reminder of what they've just learned.

If I am teaching a workshop where recordings and written music have been sent out in advance, I will usually at some stage in the latter half of the workshop get people to put their written music away and have a go at playing what we've just spent the last hour doing but without the prop of dots. this usually results in a few gasps of apprehension but on the whole people are pleased that they can mostly actually manage it!

As has often been said, the actual workshop is only the start. It's what you take away from it which is important. The real learning and work comes afterwards in the days and weeks following. This is where the written music becomes especially useful, particularly if (and most of my participants do) people have made notes on the page during the workshop.

As somone who doesn't learn by ear very well at all, Steve's comments resonate with me. I have been to workshops that were "by ear only" where I have given up half way through as I was falling behind too much and really wasn't learning anything.  Steve's approach is one that I think really works, especially being able to annotate the sheet music during the workshop to make sure things can be referenced later on.  It took me quite a few workshops to realise that I wasn't going to come away from them being note perfect and that, as Steve says, the workshop is just the start.

[Helena Handcart]

Initial ABC --> generate interim PDF --> import e.g. to Word or (more usually) Powerpoint --> add extra text, bits of staves, etc., as required --> resize, realign and generally make it look good on the page --> convert to final PDF ready for distribution to organisers and participants. And that's just one page!

--> organiser sends to me --> I retype in to abc

[Lester]

Initial ABC --> generate interim PDF --> import e.g. to Word or (more usually) Powerpoint --> add extra text, bits of staves, etc., as required --> resize, realign and generally make it look good on the page --> convert to final PDF ready for distribution to organisers and participants. And that's just one page!

--> organiser sends to me --> I retype in to abc

Me too

[Helena Handcart]

Me too

* cue Lester and Helena sitting together at the back of the workshop* muttering about lack of bloody abc or similar *


*except neither of us seem to go to many

[Thrupenny Bit]

(In reply to richard.fleming - we all make choices, and in this instance, dots vs ear, they are neither right nor wrong they are your take on it all  )

[malcolmbebb]

If it's abc, it will go in my abc file and I can guarantee finding it in ten years time. On most (or by then, all) devices in my possession.
If it's pdf, I will probably be able to find it, eventually.
If it's paper, all bets are off. I might remember to bring it to the workshop. If I can find it. 

Also, since I am in the camp who need dots to start the process, if the workshop says it's primarily or solely by ear, I will turn the page and look elsewhere. Playing by ear is a skill I would like to learn, but the two weeks before a workshop is not when it's going to happen.
It's great to have recordings, if that's appropriate for the workshop, and maybe videos (ditto) but no dots = no start.

[richard.fleming]

(In reply to richard.fleming - we all make choices, and in this instance, dots vs ear, they are neither right nor wrong they are your take on it all  )

That is what I'm trying to say. It's just a bit more difficult when the choices that I have made, for example, don't feel quite so right now..

[nigelr]

Also, since I am in the camp who need dots to start the process, if the workshop says it's primarily or solely by ear, I will turn the page and look elsewhere.

Ditto, which is why I don't really go to many anymore.  Halsway looked interesting, but the write up was very much "by ear" based so I shyed away from it.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Nigel - both Julian and I were in the Advanced Intermediate group.
The tutors either took a long time to embed the tune in us by ear, or one tutor, not teaching tunes but more right hand chords and exploring things around a tune, also had dots as well. The simple 3 button right hand chords were explained slowly and carefully and ensured everyone was on the right fingering at all times.
When we came together in the afternoon to all play for one another, several tutees in other groups had dots to play from.

I selected the Advanced Intermediate Level as one of the criteria was
'•   You can sight read and also learn tunes by ear at a reasonable pace'

The choice then becomes the choice of the tutor to decide which way to go.
I definitely fall into 'by ear at a reasonable pace...' not the quickest ear but ok-ish.
I hope that is a reasonable explanation of what was expected of us and what we did.
cheers
Q

[playandteach]

It's great to hear all these points of view. I'd rather this didn't become a simple battle of ear or notation, as there is no doubt that it is a continuum, with us being on it somewhere on the line. Even ear players often want to know the key, which is a label as is the rest of notation.
Rather I'm keen to hear about the preparation from participants, and from tutors if they have an ideal scenario. Obviously there can be multiple approaches for different workshops - if playing by ear is the point of the workshop then very little preparation is appropriate.

[george garside]

the only preparation I like from workshop participants is an open mind!  Preparing/preplanning  a workshop depends, in my opinion, on  providing  a reasonable idea of what the workshop is about in the event programme , list or whatever so as to hopefully 'pull'  participants who wish to work towards that end.  However if you describe a workshop as, beginners,  intermediate or advanced  participants idea of where they are may be quite different  from the leaders idea which can result in some individuals ( hopefully quietly) buggering off because it is too easy or two advanced for where they see themselves. 

I work on the basis of something not unlike a teachers lesson plan but with flexibility built in, says he!  I also find it very useful to put approximate timings on my crib sheet     
so that I don't run out of time  half way through the workshop.  Its very much about hitting the middle of the road  so as to , hopefully, enable the majority of participants to get something out of it whilst not getting bogged down  by trying to meet the needs of absolute beginners ( unless that is what the workshop is aimed at) or  the occasional smartarse who tries to take over the proceedings!

but we do our best to make it interesting  and perhaps most importantly enjoyable

george

[Thrupenny Bit]

I think George is bang on - an open mind!
To be led along paths you wouldn't normally go and thus expanding your outlook has surely got to be good?
Even if you never go back to it, at least you've experienced something else and then it's a positive choice not to make use of that later.
Q

[playandteach]

I work on the basis of something not unlike a teachers lesson plan but with flexibility built in, says he!
george

Absolutely agree that plans have to be made and carefully considered, then abandoned when a better option seems to be possible in the moment.

[Anne Croucher]

I went to a workshop and was totally bewildered as the tutor handed out the dots to a tune totally unknown to me. I can see how the dots fit to a tune if I know the tune, though at the time I did not even know which row to start on. 

Separating the 3rd and 4th button start instruments would have helped, I think, as it would have put everyone in a group on  the same place in the row. Not having the people dotted around in a room full of chairs would have helped too, everyone was isolated. 

Starting out slowly - making sure everyone was aware of where to start, like which row, which button, both the number and its letter would have at least got us to the starting point of the tune.

I could play tunes at the time - I am pretty swift on the uptake, playing what I hear - but I felt as though I was left at the starting gate that day.   

[Gary P Chapin]

When I design workshops I like to create as many entry points for folks as possible. I will distribute audio (maybe video) and sheet music before hand, but not require it. I will also have sheet music to hand at the session for those who wish it. However you need to come to the music, I wanna help you.

I also try to be aware that any learning experience is a conspiracy between teacher and learner and that if the teaching isn't being shaped by the learning, something will go awry. I do prepare for workshops -- a lot -- but I also know you have to meet the learners where they are (you won't meet them where they aren't!)  Agility and flexibility is a superpower for workshop teachers.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Ann, that's  sorry tale, not something I've experienced.
The tutors I've been used to always make sure we have reference points, whether 3rd or 4th button starts and constantly check we're 'on the button'.....
Q

[george garside]

I 

Separating the 3rd and 4th button start instruments would have helped, 


at begginers workshops I simply 'convert' 4th button start boxes into 3rd button start by putting a bit of masking tape over the two chin end buttons.  It then fits with my button numbers and push pull symbols

george

[Steve_freereeder]

Initial ABC --> generate interim PDF --> import e.g. to Word or (more usually) Powerpoint --> add extra text, bits of staves, etc., as required --> resize, realign and generally make it look good on the page --> convert to final PDF ready for distribution to organisers and participants. And that's just one page!

--> organiser sends to me --> I retype in to abc

Me too

But what do you do when there are lots of 'extras' -  harmonies, variations, etc? Do you spend hours burgering about with complex ABC coding and spacing to fudge all the extra staves, alternative bass lines and similar? How would you attempt to put the attached example PDF from one of my one-row workshops into ABC? If you just stuck to the basic tune in ABC, you would be missing a lot of extra information about style, techniques and variations.

Or perhaps I'm simply wasting my time endeavouring to produce detailed and informative workshop material. 

[Helena Handcart]

But what do you do when there are lots of 'extras' -  harmonies, variations, etc? Do you spend hours burgering about with complex ABC coding and spacing to fudge all the extra staves, alternative bass lines and similar? How would you attempt to put the attached example PDF from one of my one-row workshops into ABC? If you just stuck to the basic tune in ABC, you would be missing a lot of extra information about style, techniques and variations.

Nope, but I would have your pdf to refer after the workshop for those tunes I chose to take away and work up - and I could add my own annotations to the abc file if I wished - my way of remembering what you've taught might be different to what you've supplied - my own annotations or textual notes rather than music notation. In any case the finished pdfs don't speak to me and often won't make any real sense to me until AFTER the workshop  and I need to know at least how the melody goes BEFORE the workshop. 

Good old abc would give me a much better pre-workshop grounding in what the basic tune sounds like ready to more complex *stuff* with in the workshop.  If I got to a workshop (which is less likely that it used to be) and I get time to do any prep (because I'm so busy these days) and I get sent a pdf pretty much the first thing I will do is create an abc file - and I am far from the only one.