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[Lester]

Initial ABC --> generate interim PDF --> import e.g. to Word or (more usually) Powerpoint --> add extra text, bits of staves, etc., as required --> resize, realign and generally make it look good on the page --> convert to final PDF ready for distribution to organisers and participants. And that's just one page!

--> organiser sends to me --> I retype in to abc

Me too

But what do you do when there are lots of 'extras' -  harmonies, variations, etc? Do you spend hours burgering about with complex ABC coding and spacing to fudge all the extra staves, alternative bass lines and similar? How would you attempt to put the attached example PDF from one of my one-row workshops into ABC? If you just stuck to the basic tune in ABC, you would be missing a lot of extra information about style, techniques and variations.

Since I can't play from dots all the extra stuff would be wasted on me. My preference would be to convert the bare tune to ABC and, I know I'm an outlier, play from that then add my own written notes to the page during the workshop in a manner that would mean something to me. I have also never attended a workshop with such complex notation as your attached, I think it would put me off as it appears very prescriptive.  YMMV

[playandteach]

Helena
Just help me understand. I get that file storing would be easy, and that you can turn the abc into a midi file, but how else does it help you over a pdf?

[Steve_freereeder]

I have also never attended a workshop with such complex notation as your attached, I think it would put me off as it appears very prescriptive.  YMMV

It's not meant to be prescriptive but illustrative. It gives examples showing just how a superb traditional one-row player (Jeannie Harris in this instance, in an un-published recording) imterprets a basic tune in all sorts of imaginative ways. Sometimes notation looks complex because it is trying to portray a complex-sounding piece of music as accurately and succinctly as possible. The notation is a guide to what she is doing with this tune.

As a tutor and transcriber, I am trying to provide a workshop bridge between Jeannie the performer and the workshop participants.

[Lester]

Helena
Just help me understand. I get that file storing would be easy, and that you can turn the abc into a midi file, but how else does it help you over a pdf?

Not Helena but I store the ABC on my phone and thus can in spare 5 mins look at the tune whilst it is beeped at me through my ever present headphones. Gets the tune in my head in a way that a piece of paper can never achieve.

[Squeaky Pete]

Helena
Just help me understand. I get that file storing would be easy, and that you can turn the abc into a midi file, but how else does it help you over a pdf?

Not Helena but I store the ABC on my phone and thus can in spare 5 mins look at the tune whilst it is beeped at me through my ever present headphones. Gets the tune in my head in a way that a piece of paper can never achieve.

Depends how well you read music.

[Squeaky Pete]

I've only been to one workshop (Lester was there) and I was quite happy with the material. Dots were emailed a few weeks before together with sound files of the more unusual tunes.

Mind you, 40 years ago I was teaching French melodeon players how to play in an English style and it was entirely by ear.

[Lester]

Helena
Just help me understand. I get that file storing would be easy, and that you can turn the abc into a midi file, but how else does it help you over a pdf?

Not Helena but I store the ABC on my phone and thus can in spare 5 mins look at the tune whilst it is beeped at me through my ever present headphones. Gets the tune in my head in a way that a piece of paper can never achieve.

Depends how well you read music.

Hardly at all

[Howard Jones]

I see that Halsway's course with Anne Niepold & Riccardo Tesi is for "levels 3.5, 4 and 5".  There isn't actually a level 3.5 on their list.  Presumably this is "Upper Lower Intermediates" or possibly "Backward Advanced Intermediates".  Quite what skills this requires is unclear.  My guess is this means you probably read music, if you've remembered your glasses, can play a variety of left-hand rhythms, occasionally on purpose,  and you are crossing rows, sometimes intentionally.  You probably own a two-and-a-half row instrument with 12 basses, but don't know what all the extra buttons are for.

At level 3.66 recurring you sometimes venture up to the dusty end.

Actually, this is beyond parody. They've got more levels than the English class system.  I have a mental image of John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett stood in a line:

"I look up to him because he plays 18-basses, but I look down on him because he plays for morris"
"I know my place".

Mind you, it looks like a bloody good course.  It's a pity I don't read music and only play 2-row 8 bass.

[Winston Smith]

That gave me a little chuckle, Howard. Thank you.

[george garside]

I don't do the digital stuff   and manage to impart the necessary at workshops simply by  transmitting information from the gob to the earole!

george

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Helena
Just help me understand. I get that file storing would be easy, and that you can turn the abc into a midi file, but how else does it help you over a pdf?

Not Helena, either, but it is simple to add notes to an ABC file. I don't have software to add them to a pdf.

[richard.fleming]

Separating the 3rd and 4th button start instruments would have helped

What's this 'start' all about? Start what? The engine? reminds me of the joke about the (person of despised nationality of your choice) and the chainsaw..

[Helena Handcart]

Helena
Just help me understand. I get that file storing would be easy, and that you can turn the abc into a midi file, but how else does it help you over a pdf?

Well aside from storage space and the fact that the trees will love us for it - simple, with abc I can hear the tune. You can't play a pdf.

[Helena Handcart]

I see that Halsway's course with Anne Niepold & Riccardo Tesi is for "levels 3.5, 4 and 5".  There isn't actually a level 3.5 on their list.  Presumably this is "Upper Lower Intermediates" or possibly "Backward Advanced Intermediates".  Quite what skills this requires is unclear.  My guess is this means you probably read music, if you've remembered your glasses, can play a variety of left-hand rhythms, occasionally on purpose,  and you are crossing rows, sometimes intentionally.  You probably own a two-and-a-half row instrument with 12 basses, but don't know what all the extra buttons are for.

At level 3.66 recurring you sometimes venture up to the dusty end.

Actually, this is beyond parody. They've got more levels than the English class system.  I have a mental image of John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett stood in a line:

"I look up to him because he plays 18-basses, but I look down on him because he plays for morris"
"I know my place".

Mind you, it looks like a bloody good course.  It's a pity I don't read music and only play 2-row 8 bass.

Funny, and probably one of the reasons I probably won't be going back to the Halsway D/G weekend.  I really can't be bothered with the effort of trying to define my playing level against such micro-classifications. In any case it won't stop people wrongly classifying themselves.

[Thrupenny Bit]

Howard, having attended 2 weekends worth including Ann Niepold's workshops, it wouldn't matter if you have a 2 row 8  bass and couldn't read music.
That saying, this might well have s different emphasis from the weekend I've just attended.
If you are interested, talk to 'Rachel at Halsway' who does pop up here and is a member and is a melodeon player. She might have more insight into their workshop, or possibly could find out.
Q

[nigelr]

Nigel - both Julian and I were in the Advanced Intermediate group.
The tutors either took a long time to embed the tune in us by ear, or one tutor, not teaching tunes but more right hand chords and exploring things around a tune, also had dots as well. The simple 3 button right hand chords were explained slowly and carefully and ensured everyone was on the right fingering at all times.
When we came together in the afternoon to all play for one another, several tutees in other groups had dots to play from.

I selected the Advanced Intermediate Level as one of the criteria was
'•   You can sight read and also learn tunes by ear at a reasonable pace'

The choice then becomes the choice of the tutor to decide which way to go.
I definitely fall into 'by ear at a reasonable pace...' not the quickest ear but ok-ish.
I hope that is a reasonable explanation of what was expected of us and what we did.
cheers
Q

Thanks Q, that's useful to know.  It sounds like I could have coped, but I think I will always be wary from past experience.  I noted a comment earlier about a tutor calling ear players "real" or "proper" musicians or some such thing.  I've encountered this sort of attitude too many times in the folk world and unfortunately it puts my back up so much that I try and avoid it (my problem, not theirs)

[Thrupenny Bit]

Hi Nigel, this was my second Halsway weekend and I can say I've never known anyone left to flounder in the workshops - stretched, yes until my brain ached, but ultimately all worthwhile. The tutors in my experience have been in tune with the class's capabilities and worked with them.

Earlier in the thread was a 'readers v's ears' discussion. In my opinion it made no difference what you were you were included.
Cheers
Q

[Howard Jones]

Howard, having attended 2 weekends worth including Ann Niepold's workshops, it wouldn't matter if you have a 2 row 8  bass and couldn't read music.

My last comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I don't yet know whether I am able to attend this course, but wouldn't let that put me off, although I would want to check whether they will be working from written music and whether the course is aimed at exploring the larger instruments. 

[Thrupenny Bit]

Ah ok Howard, sorry the morning cuppa hasn't kicked in yet !
Yes, always worth doing your homework first before leaping in.
Q

[Howard Jones]

Back on the wider topic, what is emerging from this discussion is that players at all levels have very different needs.  I haven't seen the materials that Steve produces, they appear to be very thorough, and I agree with him that for presenting more complex music abc isn't the best medium.  However whilst those who have the reading skills will be able to interpret his more complex analysis, others simply need the bare bones of the tune, and for this abc is ideal (any digital format will do, but abc is the standard for folk music and has the advantage that the software is free)

I have been playing melodeon for more than 35 years, most of that semi-professionally, and without false modesty I think I would meet Halsway's Level 5: Advanced / Professional criteria, except that I don't read music and I choose to play a 2-row 8-bass.  I had no formal musical education - my school wouldn't even teach guitar, which was the only instrument I was then interested in learning.  Classical music was the only option available, but the music teacher did a very effective job of turning me off it (it took another teacher, not a music specialist but a keen amateur, to overcome this but by then it was too late).  My parents didn't push me to learn an instrument so I was left to myself. I have taught myself to play guitar, concertina and melodeon to a reasonably high level, all entirely by ear.  For a long time I took the view that this ignorance was actually an advantage for a folk musician, and it has certainly helped me to develop some key skills, but I now realise that some knowledge of music theory and musical notation is an advantage for all musicians.

Using abc has helped to improve my reading and writing skills, although I make many mistakes. However i have never got around to learning what note names attach to the buttons, so reading from music is still a mystery to me.  I need to hear a tune which I can then pick up quickly by ear.  I am therefore one of those whose first reaction on being given a piece of sheet music is to type it out in abc.