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[Pete Dunk]

It's just a bit more difficult when the choices that I have made, for example, don't feel quite so right now..

It's never too late to learn Richard and if you would like some help getting started with enough music theory to read a melody line I would be more than happy to give you a leg up.

[george garside]

I have never taken a 'straw poll' at my workshops as to how many read any sort of notation and how many play or wish to play by ear .However  from observation and talking to individuals it is probably more by ear or certainly  only about 50/50. Whilst being happy with 'each to his own' using complicated digital stuff and trying to notate every nuance seems somehow at odds with what is a very traditional instrument that was played originally by a majority of non readers.

I also encourage people to add their own twiddles/ornements  or if desired playing less twidly versions etc  whilst obviously listening to what the great and the good have come up with.

As a matter of principle all workshops that I have or am likely to run  are/will be aimed  primarily at by ear players although of course readers are very welcome.

 I forgot to mention in earlier posts  that as far as I am concerned where a workshop is eg billed as being ssuitable for those with some playing experience but not for absolute beginners  ( as in the 5 progressive workshops I will be doing at Shrewsbury folk festival) absolute beginners are always welcome to 'sit in' and hopefully soak up some useful melodeon stuff  and get the chance to meet other players. I presume most other workshop presenters will have similar views?

george

[Thrupenny Bit]

Since concertina days, if asked what that note in the music was, I had to think about it's name but could always reply 'dunno but its this button...' and press the right one.
I've somehow moved that idea across to melodeon.

It took me a while to understand the uses of abc. It is *very* useful in all sorts of ways.
The main one for me was identifying note length within the score. Now after using it for a while I realise playing the midi file helps my ear learning, and listening to it whilst looking at the dots has improved my sight trading.
Double whammee 👍
Q

[playandteach]

I'm sure we could go on talking about playing by ear versus playing from sheet music, but I'm trying to find out something different here. Although any discussion is better than no discussion, so I'm not worried that the thread develops as long as no-one thinks that I'm pushing for one or the other as a learning strategy.
I do think it is important to advertise workshops based on content and delivery style so that people attend the correct ones, and in a way that's more important than what a tutor provides in terms of materials. Having said that I would have attended Pascale Rubens workshop on how to do anything at all.
I do think that some workshops I've been on have been other than as advertised because of the different levels of preparation from the participants. I've still made very good use of the tutor and abstracted the help I needed. I think there is still a difference between structured learning and teaching. Perhaps that's where the one-to-one teaching really tailors the learning.
The first thing we need to know as teachers is where the starting point is, and of course the ability to differentiate for different experience levels is one of the hardest things to achieve. No simple solutions here, especially in one-off workshops.
George, I have no question for you in your desire to teach by ear - it's a vital skill, albeit one of my weaker areas, and I can see that it is entirely appropriate for what you are trying to achieve. What I find more difficult to understand is why you would do it 'as a matter of principle', rather than just as your preferred method.

[nigelr]

One of the best workshops I've been to was Julian Sutton's at Witney in 2016.  He provided recordings for each of the tunes in advance along with straightforward dots (just melody line).  I listened to the tunes in the car driving too and from work but didn't really spend time trying to learn the tunes (having being advised on here that this would probably be a waste).

At the workshop Julian then provided more detailed dots that were annotated for chord/row choices and bellows directions.  He then worked through the tunes bar by bar showing what he meant by his annotations (including left hand chord fingering) and building up the tunes until we could all join in.

I can't speak for how a pure ear player would have felt about this, but for me it was perfect - a really good combination of listening, reading, playing, making notes and having a "package" of stuff to take home.

From memory the workshop was advertised as I/H (intermediate/higher) rather then B (beginner).

[richard.fleming]

There's a huge difference between listening to a singer who knows the song off by heart and one who has to read it as they sing, and I think there may be similar subtle differences when playing music too.
As for a player's standard, it is possible for the tutors to grade players and allocate them to workshops appropriate to their levels, surely? Though this could upset people who are not as good as they think they are..

[Thrupenny Bit]

P&T: Yes all discussion is good, and with many tutors present here it will give them all ideas as to what us tutees think..
As your initial title is 'Preparation for workshops' my previous post regarding the benefits of using abc was my effort to try to answer your title of 'Preparations' inasmuch as it allows ear players to practice their sight reading and vice versa in preparation prior to attending a workshop. Then they can  take whatever comes at them knowing they've done a bit of homework.
Essentially, it's no different than going on a weekend race event such as a 10k race or Marathon. You wouldn't just turn up, you would get some practice in first.
Q

[Steve_freereeder]

As for a player's standard, it is possible for the tutors to grade players and allocate them to workshops appropriate to their levels, surely? Though this could upset people who are not as good as they think they are..

The 'grading' usually occurs as a self-assessment by the applicant at the time of applying for the workshop. The applicants then subsequently get send recordings and sheet music a few weeks in advance, but with the hint that they don't need to be note-perfect before turning up (otherwise why bother coming).

Grading by the tutors beforehand would be pretty much impossible, as the tutors don't really know who will be in their workshops or their true ability until the day itself. If a person is really struggling in a workshop, it may be possible for them go into a easier-graded workshop on the day, but that also presents added difficulties because the person concerned almost certainly won't have had the alternative workshop music in advance nor had the time to look through it.

Probably the best that can be done in advance is to have clear but flexible Ability Level criteria. The Halsway Manor criteria are unnecessarily over-detailed, in my opinion. The criteria for the Witney and Melodeons in Wensleydale weekends are pretty much OK I think.
http://melodeonsinwensleydale.org.uk/ability-levels/

[Thrupenny Bit]

I think Steve's example of levels is a good one!

[playandteach]

There's a huge difference between listening to a singer who knows the song off by heart and one who has to read it as they sing, and I think there may be similar subtle differences when playing music too.

I would rather say that there a huge difference between listening to an instrumentalist who has established an interpretation and can also play it with some spontaneity (which I realise is a contradiction), over one who is still learning the piece. If I need the prompt sheet that doesn't mean I have not great familiarity with the tune and a strong musical intention. For some of us having the music there means that we can stop using that part of the brain to worry about memory, and instead add that extra brain power on the music. I understand that there are many who can do both, and some of them will find the sheet music a distraction. But it would be a mistake to say that we all have to do it that way or take up knitting if we can't.

[george garside]

I don't think the brain works quite like that.  In effect the memory part is as separate from the 'processor' part as is the sheet of dots from the 'processor'  part.  i.e. both act as storage, the former already in the head as part of the brain  and  the piece of paper acting as an external form of memory.

Both provide input to the processor part of the brain ( one visual and the other from internal storage) the processor then sends instructions down the arm anadd fingers to the buttons or keys of the instrument.

Irrespective of which of these is used  the   part  of the brain that provides aural input from the instrument thereby providing a feedback loop that enables the musician to make the subtle, minute or whatever adjustments that transform the right dots in the right order into music played the way you want it to sound.

The brain has more than adequate capacity for these functions but we need to train it so to do!

george

[Dick Rees]

I don't think the brain works quite like that.  In effect the memory part is as separate from the 'processor' part as is the sheet of dots from the 'processor'  part.  i.e. both act as storage, the former already in the head as part of the brain  and  the piece of paper acting as an external form of memory.

Both provide input to the processor part of the brain ( one visual and the other from internal storage) the processor then sends instructions down the arm anadd fingers to the buttons or keys of the instrument.

Irrespective of which of these is used  the   part  of the brain that provides aural input from the instrument thereby providing a feedback loop that enables the musician to make the subtle, minute or whatever adjustments that transform the right dots in the right order into music played the way you want it to sound.

The brain has more than adequate capacity for these functions but we need to train it so to do!

george

Yes.

The first and most valuable thing a teacher can do is to establish a can do attitude and help the tutee dispel the "I can't do that" attitude.  It IS an attitude and not a fact.

A good teacher/tutor will be able to establish a curriculum which works on multiple levels and offers input, instruction and insight so as to accomodate disparate experience across the attendees. 

I am currently conducting monthly sessions for three players of vastly different experience and approach, yet using the same tunes and techniques in common manage to give each something to forward their progress.  Often it involves simply pointing out the ramifications of utilizing something they're already doing, giving it a fresh context and turning them loose.

And I would offer that it's not so much "levels" as disparate viewpoints, experience, preference and so on.  I try to quiz each participant as to their perception of my offerings, how it relates to their interests and needs, what is of particular value to them and what will help them most.  Tapping into the collective experience and outlook is a mighty thing and more often than not helps dispel the self-imposed limitations of "I can't-ism".

I am aware of the differences which attend to annual as opposed to monthly tutorials, but the basic tenets are fairly constant.  Opening the group up to some degree of individual input and discussion can imdeed further each individual should they meet another attendee at a later time and continue one-on-one as compatriots.

Just a few thoughts in hindsight after 50 years of learning and furthering traditional music via mentoring individuals and groups.

[playandteach]

I try not to wave a flag about my previous experience, but often fail. Whilst I am a relative newbie to the melodeon, I am also a very experienced musician, who has had superb training and tens of thousands of hours of meticulous practice leading to a highly successful career. I have played live to hundreds of thousands of people (at the same time) and played on over 1200 cds. And I have holes in my ability that have shamed me for decades. I have tackled these with a wide variety of approaches, and it turns out that there are things I am less good at than I should be. If you think that this is a boast, then you haven't read it properly, it is a confession. If people assume that the only reason skills aren't developed is that you haven't worked at it correctly, then it is for me as offensive as someone saying that a gay person just hasn't met the right partner yet.
I know from experience that if I'm attempting to play from memory, then the brain power needed for that task detracts from the subtle alertness also needed for sophisticated judgement on the fly. I just can't do both, and to have people say that it is perfectly possible for everyone means that you haven't walked a mile in my shoes.
We have to understand that not all musicians can be on the same journey.
I realise that my comments on this forum, whilst they are always meant openly and supportively, wind a faction up. I don't mean to. But please stop to consider that what works for some, even the majority cannot be the only accepted path - otherwise we risk good players assuming that they are just poorer musicians than they really are.

[Steve_freereeder]

Well said P&T.

[Dick Rees]

I know from experience that if I'm attempting to play from memory, then the brain power needed for that task detracts from the subtle alertness also needed for sophisticated judgement on the fly. I just can't do both,

In this regard I have found the following of interest and have posted the link previously:

https://youtu.be/f29a1RL2ly0


 

...and to have people say that it is perfectly possible for everyone means that you haven't walked a mile in my shoes.

OTOH, to say it is perfectly impossible is self-fulfilling.  If you think you can't, you can't or won't.  I wanted to be able to play by ear and eventually participate in traditional ensembles in real time rather than "learning it first".  It took 15 years of devoted study and concentration, but I made it.  It doesn't just happen.  It takes focus, desire and dedication...three things available to everyone.

We have to understand that not all musicians can be on the same journey.

Agreed. And in that spirit I offer up my experience as just another possibility, not to question someone's experience, but to provide another angle or viewpoint for purposes of further discussion.

Personally,  I prefer the path of possibility rather than the path of I-can't-ism...but I admit to having difficulty holding to the path sometimes.  Sometimes it requires a willing suspension of disbelief and a joyous leap into the void.  Sometimes it requires a beer.  (Disclaimer: I gave up alcoholic drinks 35 years ago.)

Edit:

Refrencing the opening post, I like #8.

[Pete Dunk]

I agree with Steve and P & T. The constant bickering about the merits of reading music vs. learning/playing by ear, mostly led by the 'earists' does this forum a great dis-service. I struggle to learn things by ear and I am filled with admiration for those who have this ability. At the same time I am pleased that I can transcribe and read music from a handwritten book that's over two hundred years old and resurect a tune or a version of a tune that possibly hasn't been played since that book was written. This, an earist can never do.

Denied access to someone who can play a tune they can listen to and learn from, their repertoire is ended. They are limited to constantly repeating what they have heard. Newly discovered, ancient repertoire is only available once it's been played/recorded by a musician capable of breathing new life into old dots.

Many of the posts in this thread are irrelevent and off topic because they contribute little or nothing to the OPs question about melodeon workshops, my reply here might well be one of the offenders because it adds little or nothing to the core debate. Herewith, I fall on my sword and bow out of the discussion.

[tirpous]

From Wikipedia article on Folk Music, emphasis is mine:

"Traditional folk music has been defined in several ways: as music transmitted orally, music with unknown composers, or music performed by custom over a long period of time."

If the nature of a music genre is to be transmitted orally, then it makes sense that workshops would be done by ear for that type of music.  I've attended dozens of North American Trad (OK, mostly québecois) workshops, and the learning is usually done by ear with no advance material (sheets may be handed out, or sent after).

It may be different in other traditions, I don't know.

A good teacher/tutor will be able to establish a curriculum which works on multiple levels and offers input, instruction and insight so as to accomodate disparate experience across the attendees.

I think this is important.  The workshop is like a buffet meal and hopefully all attendees find some food to their liking ! 

[Winston Smith]

It's a funny old world, isn't it?

Further to my earlier post, I've been persuaded by these two threads to apply myself to really thinking about my own journey, which has led me even further into the dark realms of my 68 years of development!

Perhaps (after finding out a little bit about "The Spectrum", as in Autism and all those other "isms"  which seem to blight our younger generations; from experiencing them in two of my grandsons) we aren't really in control of these learning processes as much as we like to think? Through reading through the very detailed and lengthy report which was done on my youngest grandson, I recognised much of my own learning experience as a youngster in the 50's, before any of this was thought of. My daughter was quick to tell me that she also recognised many of the same traits in me as in her little monkey of a 6 year old son!

So, is this why I don't seem to get along with learning in the general "workshop" events to which I've been? P&T's questions at the beginning of this thread didn't really accommodate my feelings or views, and I've been drawn in slightly different directions as the discussion has developed, but without coming to any real or definitive conclusions. Always, I've seemed to be slightly on the outside of any social milieu (Is that the right word?) a non-conformist in the widest possible terms!

What I have learned, musical instrument-wise, I seem to have learned by my own experimentation and fumblings, and I wonder if this little abnormality (of being different according to the modern phraseology of various "Spectrum" related syndromes etc.) is more widely responsible for many other social situations; like the Non-Conformist factions within different religions, etc.?

Not wishing to take the topic even further from its original purpose, I'll leave it at that. But I do think that my small, rather negative, experience of melodeon workshops is coloured by this "disability" in the same way that my appreciation of the beauty of the rainbow is affected by my colour blindness!

Are any (or many) other melodeonists in a similar boat, I wonder?

Surely Wikipedia isn't the place to find a definitive answer to the question "What is Folk Music?"

[Dick Rees]

Winston...

It took me five decades to understand more how and why I learn things.  Here's the Wiki on it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiential_learning

[Gary P Chapin]

From Wikipedia article on Folk Music, emphasis is mine:

"Traditional folk music has been defined in several ways: as music transmitted orally, music with unknown composers, or music performed by custom over a long period of time."

If the nature of a music genre is to be transmitted orally ...

If.