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Author Topic: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)  (Read 3481 times)

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Lester

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The only way to be sure which pitches are in each cord is to take the reed block out and sound each reed individually.


Unless you have Dirk's Accordion Tuner (like wot I do) it can detect the three reeds in a chords and up to 3 different bass octaves in the basses.


https://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php


If you are lucky the free trial version may work for the bits you are trying to listen to.

Winston Smith

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That looks very useful, Mr Bailey. But quite possibly out of the price range of many home tuners.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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My favourite review:

"Comment:English
I am download Manual Accordion from your website, and read it in detail, even, I do not have any accordion. I think you are so awesome, because the current market is very few this kind of software. And you do it in great detail and professional. After reading this. I feel I already became a professional accordion tuner. thanks."
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Greg Smith
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David Summers

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I wouldn't worry so much about the fundamental buttons - my guess is you're probably reporting bits of the harmonic series with G2 G3 D4.
That doesn’t make sense for example if I’m understanding you:

Good G
G - G2 G3 D4 this is the bass? Hohner basses only have two reeds so the D is just the harmonic of one of the G reeds.

G+ - G3 B3 D

The only way to be sure which pitches are in each cord is to take the reed block out and sound each reed individually.
Thanks both - yes I agree. At the risk of teaching grandmother to suck eggs (e.g. am sure Gena & Theo already know this), some more details on how things resonate.

Objects that resonate well (so reeds, strings, pipes, etc) usually resonate strong on one note, and do a series of harmonics on top, at twice, three times and so on the fundamental frequency. So if we look at these:

1x : The main note
2x : One Octave up
3x : Octave and a fifth
4x : Two octaves
5x : Two octaves and a somwhat flat major third (unless you are a piper ;) )

And me when I look at the Bass G note I have that:

1x : G2 -18dB
2x : G3 -21dB
3x : D4 -19dB
4x : G4 -25dB
5x : B4 -19dB
6x : D5 -26dB

So you can see all the harmonics appearing. Interesting that D4 is stronger than G3, when there is meant to be a reed on G3.

Anyway how with all these notes can you tell the note, and analysis. Crux is the harmonics are what is needed, its what gives the note its colour; pure tones are as boring as anything. You can see the difference in a singer using chest voice, vs head voice; in chest voice you excite all the resonances; head voice and killing as many resonances as possible. Each gives a different feel.

But how to study notes, crux is that the higher harmonics are quieter (lower dB) and also always an octave away (at least in instruments we see as making tones, so a drum will have resonances all over the spectrum ....)

So what the above really tells me is that I'm sure a G2 reed is firing. I actually can't tell if there is a G3 reed in there as well, Hohner construction says there should be, but the frequency analysis isn't conclusive.

When doing the same on the G+ G Major chord:

G3 -19dB
B3 -17dB
D4 -17dB

And then we go into a mass of notes over an octave away. But can see that in the octave above the bass note, that there is also a strong B and D; to play a standard G3 major triad.

I had actually meant all this in my note posting, I see all this without the words on the page, but its worth explaining  in detail.

I'll paste in the frequency plot that this came from below, its with me alternating between the G and G+ button; and you can see a piano keyboard and frequencies on the left axis.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 11:29:14 AM by David Summers »
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David Summers

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Chord inversions are pretty common, since the chord changes with the in and out, it can help reed responsiveness and performance to have the push and pull reeds that make up the chord be closer together in frequency. D4/A4 F#4/C#5 A4/E5 most likely wont perform as well or as evenly as D4/C#4 F#4/E4 A4/A4.
Now that is an insight! What you say makes sense, I just don't have a clue how to use it; other than try random chords, and see which one works best!
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David Summers

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OK - have done all bass buttons now:

12 pull
D  - D2 -25dB
D+ - D4 -33dB F# -34dB A4 -40dB - standard D4 major chord - 2 octaves above bass

12 push
G  - G2 -26dB
G+ - B3 -25dB D4 -40dB G4 -41dB - first inversion of G major chord -- 2 octaves above bass

34 pull
G  - G2 -23dB
G+ - G3 -25dB B3 -18dB D4 -30Db - standard G major chord - 1 octave above bass

34 push
C  - C2 -24dB
C+ - G3 -25dB C4 -22dB E4 -33dB - second inversion of C major - 2 octaves above bass

56 pull
A  - A2 -20dB
A+ -  A3 -17dB C# -31dB E4 -19dB - A major - 1 octave above bass

56 push
E  -  E2 -22dB
E+ - G# -18dB B3 -17dB E4 -18dB - fist inversion of E - 2 octaves above bass

78 pull
F  -  F2 -18dB
F+ - A3 -26dB C4 -15dB F4 -30dB -  first inversion of F - 2 octaves above bass

78 push
D  - D2 -20dB
D+ - A3 -25dB D4 -21dB F# -20dB - second inversion of D - 2 octaves above bass

So dB don't tell us much. On all chords all reeds are working, but inversions are all over the shop - need to ponder how to use these.

So I was confused by the inversions.

As Gena said, push and pull are close in tones on chords - so that is how inversions have been done. Except on buttons 12 where a none obvious inversion has been done
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:24:02 PM by David Summers »
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David Summers

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So thinking of chord progressions. Given the chords avaiable, and chord progressions tend to use some mixture of I IV V there seem only four keys were you can access all of those chords:

A Major: A+ D+ E+
C Major: C+ F+ G+
D Major: D+ G+ A+
G Major: G+ C+ D+

So do the chords work best in songs of those keys?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:55:18 PM by David Summers »
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Peadar

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So thinking of chord progressions. Given the chords avaiable, and chord progressions tend to use some mixture of I IV V there seem only four keys were you can access all of those chords:

A Major: A+ D+ E+
C Major: C+ F+ G+
D Major: D+ G+ A+
G Major: G+ C+ D+

So do the chords work best in songs of those keys?

I don't know the answer to that one...but somewhere early on in the thread you said that you were interested in playing English folk music. Keys of D & G with a relatively small number of tunes (unless you are from suffolk) in C would appear to cover all the basses. 
There appears to be a current fashion among English "folk" composers (inverted commas because there is no such thing as a folk composer - tunes have to earn their stripes by surviving in the wild before they can be considered folk tunes-even though the makar may be kent to history) for faddy keys with lots of flats, but if the tunes won't reset to the keys of diatonic instruments common to the culture they claim to belong to then they are dead on arrival.

There seems to be a cyclicity about fashionable key signatures as well. Flat keys seem to have been incredibly popular among arrangers of traditional music of the four nations during the late Victorian period.

Get my coat? I'm away for the flak jacket and tin hat.  8)
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playandteach

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So thinking of chord progressions. Given the chords avaiable, and chord progressions tend to use some mixture of I IV V there seem only four keys were you can access all of those chords:

A Major: A+ D+ E+
C Major: C+ F+ G+
D Major: D+ G+ A+
G Major: G+ C+ D+
Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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There appears to be a current fashion among English "folk" composers ... for faddy keys with lots of flats, but if the tunes won't reset to the keys of diatonic instruments common to the culture they claim to belong to then they are dead on arrival.

There seems to be a cyclicity about fashionable key signatures as well. Flat keys seem to have been incredibly popular among arrangers of traditional music of the four nations during the late Victorian period.

Get my coat? I'm away for the flak jacket and tin hat.  8)

I suspect flat keys are popular because our ears are favourably impressed by something that sounds a bit different. In reality, for instance,  Bb isn't far removed from A, but suits some singing voices better.. From a melodeon point of view, all you need, to join in, is a box tuned in an appropriate key. Historically, I think a similar thing was going on. In Victorian times, people were playing in keys that corresponded to the instruments they played. I won't bother specifying. I'm sure you know what I mean.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:57:11 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
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David Summers

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I don't know the answer to that one...but somewhere early on in the thread you said that you were interested in playing English folk music. Keys of D & G with a relatively small number of tunes (unless you are from suffolk) in C would appear to cover all the basses. 
There appears to be a current fashion among English "folk" composers (inverted commas because there is no such thing as a folk composer - tunes have to earn their stripes by surviving in the wild before they can be considered folk tunes-even though the makar may be kent to history) for faddy keys with lots of flats, but if the tunes won't reset to the keys of diatonic instruments common to the culture they claim to belong to then they are dead on arrival.

There seems to be a cyclicity about fashionable key signatures as well. Flat keys seem to have been incredibly popular among arrangers of traditional music of the four nations during the late Victorian period.

Get my coat? I'm away for the flak jacket and tin hat.  8)
Well so far I've been taking standard tunes, transposing into C and playing them, to get used to fingering in C. I'll move onto transposing them into G and D when comfortable. Hope to get comfortable enough in those to do some playing with the Pil people, but suspect until I'm comfortable in G and D, I'd probably mess them up. Where the paying goes, I just see how I progress.

I guess questions was mainly about my left hand, and the moment all its doing is working the bellows, but I've got 8 keys over there I should use at some stage. Now the access I have to chords is limited, so I can only see using them as a drone (like on a bag pipe) all be it though a drone that you can change, indeed have to change on push and pull.

Now on tunes which work should be able to do a drone that goes I-IV-V-I, and that will sound good, and give the key. But yes limited to the major keys said, but at least incding CD and G. [ So in a key of G; do the chord sequence G+ C+ D+ G+]; several other good sequences avaiable.

So yes really just trying to come up with doing something with those left hand buttons ...

Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.
OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors? All I can think of is do the majors from the relative key to the minor. So II III and VI chords. I suspect that would sound naff - yes it gives all the notes in the minor key, but arranged as majors, and no tonic chord.
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David Summers

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I suspect flat keys are popular because our ears are favourably impressed by something that sounds a bit different. In reality, for instance,  Bb isn't far removed from A, but suits some singing voices better.. From a melodeon point of view, all you need, to join in, is a box tuned in an appropriate key. Historically, I think a similar thing was going on. In Victorian times, people were playing in keys that corresponded to the instruments they played. I won't bother specifying. I'm sure you know what I mean.
Alex Patterson of Alden, Patterson, & Dashwood; said they did a song in the key of C# becuase the other band members didn't like him; and C# (aka Db) is almost impossible on the fiddle ...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 10:27:17 AM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.

OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors? All I can think of is do the majors from the relative key to the minor. So II III and VI chords. I suspect that would sound naff - yes it gives all the notes in the minor key, but arranged as majors, and no tonic chord.

I think P&T is talking about putting together versions of minor chords by combining the root note and the major chord 2 notes above, to give a version of the m7. e.g., play an E bass note with the chord of G major to get Em7.
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Greg Smith
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David Summers

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Don't want to state the obvious (sorry if you've considered this), but minors and common modes are also available.

OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors? All I can think of is do the majors from the relative key to the minor. So II III and VI chords. I suspect that would sound naff - yes it gives all the notes in the minor key, but arranged as majors, and no tonic chord.

I think P&T is talking about putting together versions of minor chords by combining the root note and the major chord 2 notes above, to give a version of the m7. e.g., play an E bass note with the chord of G major to get Em7.
AH - yes that makes sense. So adding in the root note by hand.

So just check whats avaiable:

A+ F --> F major On reflection, two major thirds to give an augmented fifth - this is bad having just tried
E+ C --> C major On reflection, two major thirds to give an augmented fifth - this is bad having just tried
F+ D --> D minor - and this works when tried
G+ E --> E minor - this also works when tried

So only 2 minor chords available. So no real chord sequences ....

So think only minor chord sequence  is iv-v-iv-v etc on A minor
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 12:03:44 PM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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AH - yes that makes sense. So adding in the root note by hand.

You've got it.
It's a standard method for putting together minor chords on 4th apart boxes.
There are other possibilities using the same principle of button combinations.
Much discussed at various times. I think someone may have done a complete table of them.

I wouldn't get too worried about inversions, by the way. They are useful for varying the possibilities, but G with the basic triad notes isn't harmonically different to G in the first inversion. Very much interchangeable. I have a similar thing on my 12 Bass 2.4 row.
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Greg Smith
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OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors?

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords. Many modern instruments have a stop to do just that. On older machines, you may be able to get a stop fitted by one of our wizard Hohner-wranglers. What most people do is use masking tape to stop the third reeds from sounding.

Easy on some Italian boxes, where the thirds are in a straight line and you can run a length of tape under the reedblock to block off the reeds concerned, which are all in a line. On Hohners the layout is more complicated and you have to tape off individual reeds.

This gives you a full set of "power chords" - sounding I and V only, and these will do duty for both major and minor chords. Obviously you don't get the full major-chord experience but that's a price I'm more than happy to pay. (Don't miss the grating ET third at all in fact!) On a semitone box, where you can easily play in several minor keys, I think not having your chords spayed makes no sense at all.

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David Summers

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OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors?

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords. Many modern instruments have a stop to do just that. On older machines, you may be able to get a stop fitted by one of our wizard Hohner-wranglers. What most people do is use masking tape to stop the third reeds from sounding.
Yes - sounds like a clever solution to playing minor keys. I'm slowly beginning to realise these button accordians are a bit of a compromise that you need to work arround. I can see there are some tunes where need to ignore the bass, and some where its ideal to miss a note out of the trebble side - maybe just leave a gap ...  (:)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 01:52:01 PM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords...This gives you a full set of "power chords" - sounding I and V only, and these will do duty for both major and minor chords. Obviously you don't get the full major-chord experience

There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution. I have one box with the thirds taped off, one with a thirds stop and one with standard chords. The key phrase is "Obviously you don't get the full major-chord experience"

I must confess to preferring the full chord experience and the m7 solution is great for me. Bear in mind that I play D/G and C/F boxes. I may not be looking for the same things as you. In particular, I am not in the business of playing in every key on one box.
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Greg Smith
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There are plenty of people on here who would argue against that solution.

I'm sure you're right about that. Though I wonder how many of them play B/C...  ;)
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OK, now you have lost me. Every single chord key has a major third in the chord. So how do I do minors?

What nearly every semitone box player these days does is to remove the thirds from the chords. Many modern instruments have a stop to do just that. On older machines, you may be able to get a stop fitted by one of our wizard Hohner-wranglers.

Microbot of this parish did this very thing on my D/G Pressedwood...
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