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Author Topic: Hohner identification & age (removed Pokerwork from subject - as it isn't!)  (Read 4108 times)

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george garside

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Mastering all the scales and playing in remote keys can come later.
  ..
[/quote

I agree with this and was only suggesting a pecking order for EVENTUALY learning more scales.  i.e. learn G scale than some tunes in G before adding D scale and some tunes in D  etc etc.   Also by learning tunes I am talking about learning to play them with some degree of musicality rather than just the right notes in the right order.  As to tunes start with very simple ones  that are already in your head. eg saints go marching in,  Better to play very simple tunes well than complicated ones tunelessly!

george
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george garside

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I too recommend Hanrahans BC book as a useful point of reference even if you don't use many of his tune choices

george
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Stiamh

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The Hanrahan book may be useful if you start from a position of utter cluelessness, but I reckon that for anyone who is comfortable thinking in terms of the circle of fifths it will be of limited use, if not a waste of money.

David I think you'll get a lot more out of reading this discussion than perusing The Box. Just my opinion. I bought it when I was starting out and found it exceedingly disappointing. Although he does say somewhere something along the lines of "you should try to play the D scale using no more than three fingers", sort of a throwaway remark, but actually the most valuable piece of information in the whole book.  8)
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Henry Piper

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If the instrument concerned was originally in G/C and later converted to B/C could the apparent discrepancy in the Octaves of the bass be accounted for by assuming that the "convertor",  changed only the "G" reed blocks to "B" blocks without altering the other set thus causing the mismatch ??
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From Ottery St Mary Devon. Currently Playing Dino Baffetti BP2 in D/G, Hohner Student 1 P.A conversion  in D/G,  Hohner 3515 Pre-Pokerwork in A/D,   2 row "Beaver Brand" in Bb/Eb, Hohner Pre- Erica in G/C .  Single row permanent 4 voice, 4 bass in C from old Hohner single row and bits of a cheap Cajun box !!,

David Summers

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The Hanrahan book may be useful if you start from a position of utter cluelessness, but I reckon that for anyone who is comfortable thinking in terms of the circle of fifths it will be of limited use, if not a waste of money.

David I think you'll get a lot more out of reading this discussion than perusing The Box. Just my opinion. I bought it when I was starting out and found it exceedingly disappointing. Although he does say somewhere something along the lines of "you should try to play the D scale using no more than three fingers", sort of a throwaway remark, but actually the most valuable piece of information in the whole book.  8)
Thanks Stiamh, that thread was very useful. Actually I've only been using 3 fingers so far, because on all melodeons, on the push the tonic, third and fifth keep repeating, but on the low octave the pull is one note higher; whilst on the second octave the pull is one note lower. So for me keeping 3 fingers on the tonic third and fifth reminds me that when I move I need remember that the push is changing. Now I recon I'll need to abandon this method, when I get used to the layout - but at the moment am just trying to cram the layout into my head. The zero and third octave are a mare right now, why in an upward scale you go 9pull 10pull 9 push to get ABC is just doing my brain in ....

Circle of fifths is one thing I got from choral singing, it makes understanding keys tractable. And for a semitone melodeon tells one how to play in different keys. So for a key of G play on the C diatonic, but take F# from the B line rather than the F. Similarly a key of F, do the C diatonic, but take Bb from the B line (where its called A#). Similarly key of E play on the B diatonic with one note from the C diatonic.

One just has to hope you never get called on to play in Ab or Eb as those keys are almost 50/50 split between the B and C diatonic.

Think I need a few more days (which means maybe 1 hour playing) of getting scales right, as at the moment am not getting the bellows and keys  moving consistently, so I can keep even timing. This I'll need before I can do any rhythm.

Then I'll move onto tunes, and I'm actually not that worry about key - working from sheet music, once I've worked out the key - I'll just transpose into B or C as seems fit, e.g. just play tonic, second, third, etc.

Really just need practice now, and shed loads of it ...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 10:36:09 PM by David Summers »
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David Summers

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If the instrument concerned was originally in G/C and later converted to B/C could the apparent discrepancy in the Octaves of the bass be accounted for by assuming that the "convertor",  changed only the "G" reed blocks to "B" blocks without altering the other set thus causing the mismatch ??
Though I had convinced myself that the bass notes at least have been changed. fourth apart always have one key (bottom right) that plays same note on push and pull. On a BC device that plays DF; and I think on my device the note changes, so bass must be a changed to a semitone melodeon.

The octave (give or take) on the bass between chords and bass, I think I put down to Hohner thing. On the Voices and Tunings – A Beginner’s Guide they explain that bass notes is two  voices and two notes an octave apart, one very low, and one mid. On my model 3515 I assume the same has been done, and the low octave is some stonking great powerful beast. Think this is what playandteach was referring to.

Now the chords, must be 3 voice, they are major chords. So suspect then have just take 135 from the mid octave.

Now I can eventually check all this, just checking by ear, and reproducing chords on the right hand side (e.g. Cmajor can be played simultaneously on the right and left hand). At some stage I'll open the box and look at the reads.

Oh yes, right hand is somewhere between wet and very moist, like some notes the beats is up at 4Hz, and all are over 1Hz. It almost gives a reason to hold notes ....  (:)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 07:26:55 PM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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And whilst posting - any suggestions for a case to get for this beast, its lasted 90 years so far, and would be good to see it go another 90 ...

Charlie Marshal (CGM Music) and Acorn do good soft gig bags.
I seem to remember Rees saying he had hard cases.

Would it fit a  pokerwork bag/case?
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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David Summers

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Charlie Marshal (CGM Music) and Acorn do good soft gig bags.
I seem to remember Rees saying he had hard cases.

Would it fit a  pokerwork bag/case?
Thanks Greg.

Rees web site: http://www.melodeons.com/ doesn't mention any cases.

CGM Music and Acorn have then, but painful price, so I'll need to suck air for a bit.

Yes almost certain it would fit a pokerwork case, I need to measure it - but its set up in a very similar way, surprising small - will have to look inside at some time, it must have 112 or so reeds inside - and that must be quite tight packing!
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David Summers

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Circle of fifths is one thing I got from choral singing, it makes understanding keys tractable.
And on the way cycling into work thought about this a bit more.

On the Circle of fifths, if you move left and not right (so add flats) the first flats that you add are Bb and Eb; so going left and you quickly loose the two notes that are on B and C diatonic. So in F major, and D minor you loose B, and by Bb Major and G minor lost E as well. This means most of the keys with flat in there is only *one* way to play every note, so there will no way to change if you Push or Pull, so will easy to get to the end of the bellows. Guess all you can do then, is skip a note and use the air button to get back to the middle of the bellows.

Hmm wonder how it will work. Take C minor:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb that becomes Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Pull - so actually isn't too bad.

Anyway need to get back to C major, to at least play it smoothly ....

And more thoughts, the keys with flats, when you know which notes have flats, are easy from the C diatonic, just move down to B and left - with same pull and push, and that will work for all keys. Which makes all the flat keys fairly easy to learn (:)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 07:31:49 PM by David Summers »
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davidd

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I came at the accordion from a decidedly non musical background and found Hanrahans book to be a nice source of tunes to listen to and the music is helpful but it doesn't seem to offer much in the way of instruction.  I found P. J. Hernons DVD to be much better way to learn a handful of tunes and showing how to get around the keyboard.  Being able to see his fingers on the buttons was very helpful to me as I am a very much a visual learner.
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Stiamh

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Hmm wonder how it will work. Take C minor:

C D Eb F G Ab Bb that becomes Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Push-Pull-Pull - so actually isn't too bad.

Anyway need to get back to C major, to at least play it smoothly ....

Not too bad? Actually I think you'll find Cm a bit of a dog, at least for fast tunes, at least in the early stages of your playing career. The main reason being that whereas in C major you can use the outer row E to take three notes in one gulp, smoothing things out nicely, the Eb won't let you do that. (And of course in several of the main keys used in trad music, on B/C you can take gulps of more than three notes, or at least consecutive gulps of two or three.)

So in Cm you will face a lot of constant in-and-outing, in linear passages at least, the kind that beginning B/C players don't take kindly to. ;) (I don't go running after dance tunes to play in Dm on my C#/D.)

Time to get off the bike and start learning a few real-world tunes?  (:)
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David Summers

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Not too bad? Actually I think you'll find Cm a bit of a dog, at least for fast tunes, at least in the early stages of your playing career. The main reason being that whereas in C major you can use the outer row E to take three notes in one gulp, smoothing things out nicely, the Eb won't let you do that. (And of course in several of the main keys used in trad music, on B/C you can take gulps of more than three notes, or at least consecutive gulps of two or three.)

So in Cm you will face a lot of constant in-and-outing, in linear passages at least, the kind that beginning B/C players don't take kindly to. ;) (I don't go running after dance tunes to play in Dm on my C#/D.)

Time to get off the bike and start learning a few real-world tunes?  (:)
(:) you've identified what i find hardest to far, the push and pull, at the same time as changing notes, and or hand position. So keep DEF all on the pull. I'll try that in a mo one one octave.

Alas going into work isn't something I can escape from right now, and I'm happier doing it on a bike, than in a car in traffic jams listening to radio 4. Its also good thinking time, as its totally free - random thoughts cost nothing, and occasionally you have a good though ;)
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Charlie Marshal (CGM Music) and Acorn do good soft gig bags.
I seem to remember Rees saying he had hard cases.

Would it fit a  pokerwork bag/case?

Did you ask Reese?
He mentioned them in a reply to a post.
£50

If that's too much you might struggle to find what you're after.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 11:06:02 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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David Summers

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Greg I'll try PMing Rees.... £50 for a good case would be fine, but need to know its the right case ....

Something odd going on in the chords that I havn't work out.

On the bass side, if I walk bass notes on 3 buttons, CDEFGA then play out the expected diatonic sequence. The 4th bass button (GD) reproduces the same D and G, just with pull and push swapped. So this is as expected.

The chords should all match the bass notes, but walking the bass chords through the same sequence, and they are all over the place. The GD chords aren't the same when repeated, in particular the two G chords are way different, almost like one is missing the low note ... Anyway will take some time this afternoon to try and work out what I actually have on those chords.

On C scale, taking E from the B row does help, but need to get these sequences into muscle memory. I can walk up the scale fine, but on the way down I'm always making fingering mistakes. Probably need to practice the C CDC CDEDC CDEFEDC CDEFGFEDC CDEFGAGFEDC CDEFGABAGFEDC CDEFGABCBAGFEDC sequence, need to at least get that smooth ...
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David Summers

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Alas Rees has none left. But I did manage to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and it was recognisable, now for Baa Baa Black sheep ...

And thats Baa Baa Black sheep done, same as Twinkle, with some twiddly bits.

Now for My Bonnie ...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 06:54:33 PM by David Summers »
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Peadar

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  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.

Alas Rees has none left. But I did manage to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and it was recognisable, now for Baa Baa Black sheep ...

And thats Baa Baa Black sheep done, same as Twinkle, with some twiddly bits.

Now for My Bonnie ...

You're away!
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Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

Tone Dumb Greg

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Alas Rees has none left. But I did manage to play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and it was recognisable, now for Baa Baa Black sheep ...

And thats Baa Baa Black sheep done, same as Twinkle, with some twiddly bits.

Now for My Bonnie ...

Pete at Acorn's Fusilli bags are excellent soft bags. You might find them slightly cheaper elsewhere, but not significantly. They are far better than any others around at the moment.
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Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
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David Summers

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Isn't fusilli a kinda of pasta   ???
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Steve_freereeder

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Isn't fusilli a kinda of pasta   ???
Yes. The gig bags are made by Fuselli.
But no matter, as Greg says, they are excellent bags. I have two from Pete:
This one for my 2.2 row 1914 box and this one for my Mory.
The smaller bag especially gets a lot of use when out playing for dancing. I've had it at least 6 years and it is still virtually as good as new with no sign of wear and with the heavy-duty steel zips intact and completely secure. Both gig bags are well padded and with good strong straps and very comfortable to carry around. Highly recommended.
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Steve
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David Summers

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Thanks TDG and SF - this are the kind or recommendations I'm after so the acorn bags are £10 more than the CGM bags, but two excellent reviews here says that the £10 is money well spent. Thanks for this, otherwise I'd question why £10 extra ...
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