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Author Topic: Playing for singers - How do you do it?  (Read 4787 times)

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george garside

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2019, 09:26:56 AM »

Did some playing for others in the mid Pennine session en route to Whitby  :|glug
 
 The singer is boss and it's musically hazardous to forget that.

Indeed -  that just about sums it up!

george
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David Summers

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2019, 11:39:43 AM »

If ever I get to arrange a piece of music for a choir the basses will get the melody line, while the sapronas will get nothing but bar long rests

I get the joke. It has some musical validity too, but the lowest note heard is very influental to our brains in setting the context of other notes in and harmony. To demo … play some random little phrase against a bass drone of eg D,G or C push, or E, D or C pull. 
Well it has some tradition, but as to musical validity, I'd say it isn't set in stone.

For an instrument, as say a melodeon, its easy enough - you just thump a left hand button, and the reed has no feelings.

But for a singer, its putting a label on that singer as only being any good as a drone - we aren't bees for crying out loud :)

To me it best to go back to the ancient counterpoint approach to harmony, voice against voice, where both voices have valid and interesting lines, but the two together give a more interesting harmony. I know the world moved on from counterpoint, but there are lessons there that to mine mind it would help if people were at least aware of them; and one of those is that each voice should be a tune in itself.

To give an example of how painful it can be, if you take a bit of music thats in a major or minor key, and on an instrument that only have the seven key notes per octave, and not the twelve, then there are just 3 chords in those 7 notes that retain the major/minor nature, I, IV and V. If the bass can just do the root of the chord; this means they are struct to just three notes. It would be funny, but actually some  songs do just that - hold the low voice to three notes, and that is no fun at all ...

« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 11:44:29 AM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2019, 06:38:15 PM »


.. if you take a bit of music thats in a major or minor key, and on an instrument that only have the seven key notes per octave, and not the twelve, then there are just 3 chords in those 7 notes that retain the major/minor nature, I, IV and V. If the bass can just do the root of the chord

Can you elaborate. I can't make sense of this. Surely the Bass can play/sing the root of any of the natural chords (regardless of the mode).
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Greg Smith
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ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

David Summers

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2019, 10:06:14 AM »

Say we are in C Major key (just so the seven notes have no sharp or flat). There are 3 major chords:
  • C Major: Tonic: [C E G]
  • F Major: Subdominant: [F A C]
  • G Major: Dominant: [G B D]
And you'll find many major songs are based on just those three chords, or sometimes only two. I'll dig out some examples, or at least try and find some where the music is online. So if the low voice is held to just the key note in each chord, then only C, F and G can be sung.

If instead we look at A Minor key (so the same seven notes). There are 3 minor chords:
  • A Minor: Tonic: [A C E]
  • D Minorr: Subdominant: [D F A]
  • E Minor: Dominant: [E G B]
So get the same restriction. Minor isn't quite so bad, there is also the diminished chord:
  • B Minor Diminished: Tonic: [B D F]
Which gives a bit more space; and then the 6th and 7th can be sharpened as well to F# and G# - so the minor key has more opportunities.

Anyway let me find some examples, and I'll then edit this post.

The Bitty Withy: this one is interesting, becuase its been well done. I've just been through the first verse - practically the whole thing is based on the chord of G - with some connecting chords; the G is sometimes in the right hand, sometimes in the left. Seems like any chord that isn't a G is rapidly moving to G - so whole song based on one chord.

The Holly and the Ivy: . This is in D Minor, and there are an whole lot of Dm chords everywhere, it keeps being returned to. But goes to a G minor - Subdominat, and A triads - dominat (some made major). Has some interesting progressions Dm Gm AM Dm E7 Dm. But can see the central role of D minor, and I've first two lines.

So can see how many songs are based around their key, with use of chords around them. Give me a bit more time and I'll find some based on the dominant. Thing to note though is even when Tonic triad dominates, a good song spreads the tonic note between the voices, and doesn't force the low voice to sing the tonic.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 04:19:14 PM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2019, 11:00:25 AM »

Say we are in C Major key (just so the seven notes have no sharp or flat). There are 3 major chords:
  • C Major: Tonic: [C E G]
  • F Major: Subdominant: [F A C]
  • G Major: Dominant: [G B D]
And you'll find many major songs are based on just those three chords, or sometimes only two....

If instead we look at A Minor key (so the same seven notes). There are 3 minor chords...

Yes, but what I don't understand is, why limit yourself to a three chord trick?
I am not a singer, but I the musicians I know don't limit themselves like that and neither do I.
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Greg Smith
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ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Eshed

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2019, 11:11:22 AM »

As Greg said, sprinkling minor chords (Dm, Em, Am) into a major tune (and vice versa, major chords into a minor tune) makes it so much more interesting and satisfying.
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george garside

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2019, 11:24:41 AM »

for who - the singer(s) or the box player?

george
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2019, 11:27:05 AM »

And, might I add, if you are the bass singer, you have a very interesting super power: if people are singing a C chord and you choose to sing a nice low A note? Guess what, they're singing A minor 7 now. Even strict diatonic harmony gives you many options, even if you then limit yourself to an even smaller pallet of the chords within the set - consider the Bass singer's options for eg walking bass lines & inversions, which give you a lot of power to direct the harmonisation & feeling of where the tune is going, relying less on 'functional' ideas.

I believe when Chris suggested one tried a 'drone' to change the feeling of a passage of notes, it was to demonstrate the true power of the bass note/player/singer, not to imply that that to drone was actually the bass players purpose.
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Eshed

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2019, 11:36:20 AM »

for who - the singer(s) or the box player?

george
Both, I think, as long as you do it consistently.
The singers shouldn't be surprised by your choice of harmony. While I'm usually very much for bass variations, when accompanying it should be toned down and agreed upon in advance.
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george garside

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2019, 12:14:14 PM »

for who - the singer(s) or the box player?

george
it should be toned down and agreed upon in advance.

that's the important bit!
george
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David Summers

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2019, 04:32:32 PM »

Yes, but what I don't understand is, why limit yourself to a three chord trick?
I am not a singer, but I the musicians I know don't limit themselves like that and neither do I.
I think its down to where the resting places are in a tune, whilst one can go via seventh chords, and various other chords; they aren't a natural resting place. So if you look for the strong chords on held notes, its usually tonic, dominant or subdominant, as they have the chord feel of the whole music.

Think it also worth thinking where this line started, if the low voice is held to do the root of the chords - then they can easily be stuck on just a few notes, as just those few notes define much of the key.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2019, 11:17:49 AM »

As Greg said, sprinkling minor chords (Dm, Em, Am) into a major tune (and vice versa, major chords into a minor tune) makes it so much more interesting and satisfying.

I agree.  The implied tonality is C and … rather that randomly sprinkle you can straight substitute Dm for F,  Em for G.  Am for C is more subtle as that's our tonic but it works well as a passing chord

Or 'Anatole' named after someone in Grappelli's band:  You precede each chord by it's 5th, but stay with the modal chords of the scale.  Thus  Em > Am > Dm > G > C, best done with a bit of swing and verve.  Tunes like Fueilles Mortes classically  use this style right through.

As with singing a major 3rd against a minor chord :o the inverse takes more care and planning, but the major IV triad or 7 works particularly well.  In our example that'd be Cm - F, again nice with some swing.  I often sing in Gm and use the corresponding Gm -C alternation a LOT  8) 

In essence you are harmonising using melodic minor scale notes in which both the IV and V chord are structurally dominants  eg  [C7, D7 for Gm].   That C7 feels sort of 'half dominant'.  I prefer to voice it as C - the harmony then … rocks between the C-Gm chords. Definite 'jazz' edge though, according to my song session.

Full melodic minor harmony gets a tad heavy for folk music, with 2 diminished and 2 augmented chords. 'Hinting' works just nicely.   

On a DG try out   | Am  D | G  Am |   or   | Em A | D Em |   licks …  Note there's a  bit of 'Anatole' in there too!  8)   Chords like these are very forgiving and won't restrict the singer at all.  Which is why jazzers like them  ;)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 11:23:16 AM by Chris Ryall »
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george garside

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Re: Playing for singers - How do you do it?
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2019, 03:07:59 PM »

useful practice in accompanying singers  can be had in the comfort of your own home by attempting to play along with some of the vast veriety o songs being sung on youtube.   I recently found a particularly nice solo of the song 'maggie'  and  after due experimatnation realised it was being sung in the key of E-  well out of DG range but absolutely no problem on my BC >:E

george
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