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Author Topic: info on crossing rows  (Read 9648 times)

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george garside

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2019, 09:40:32 PM »

the on the row -v- row crossing debate seems to be never ending  , the divide perhaps having more to do with the psychological make up of the player. on the row or should I say mainly on the row melody lead brigade are on the whole a pragmatic lot whereas the  cross row correct chords brigade belong to  the theoretical camp.

Neither is 'correct' and neither is 'wrong'   and in my humble opinion there is room for a bit of both  and devotees of either  may well benefit from dabbling with a bit of t'other  . I do however sometimes think that those who agonise  over getting constantly correct bass chords may find that a continental chromatic box with stradella bass would meet their every desire

george >:E ;)



   
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playandteach

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2019, 09:48:03 PM »

But I also like to understand the mathematics / mechanics of the instrument.

But I am not a natural player so I need rules to allow me to know what is possible. When I am comfortable with the rules the I can feel where to bend them.

This ties in with the way I learn - being told to do something is so much harder if you don't understand why. You'll find that you may have to cut bass notes or left hand chords short to allow for a quick bellows change to get to the note you want. Now to get to your other points.
For several years it upset me to find a tune without chord suggestions. I can always work out how to harmonise a tune, but firstly it wouldn't necessarily be close to the original choices, but more importantly it wouldn't give me any indication on whether I should be striving for patterns in one direction or the other, so it is really important for me still to have the chords there at the start of learning a new tune.
The colour coding is something that you will be able to dispense with as you become more experienced, but there are several well know people out there who have done the same - including the great Stephane Delicq.
In some ways it is more straight forward to have to play in the direction for the notes you have no flip to - rather than make choices about which D chord to use, and in fact I often change my mind on these once I've learnt a tune, to help with not running out of air. As a very rough general rule I run out of bellows on the pull in French music, and run out of bellows (shutting the box) on the push on English music: so I might choose to play a pull D chord in English music just to allow for air, and the other way round for French music.
There are many more experienced players here than I am, but maybe it helps that I'm relatively new to the instrument (a few years) too, so that I can see where your struggles are.
Keep asking questions. Good luck
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Serafini R2D2 GC, Serafini GC accs 18 bass

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2019, 09:53:07 PM »

Good point. I mean my own bellows jiggling. I am principally a guitarist so I am finding it difficult to discoordinate my hands, which is essential for squeezebox playing . (And is why I don't play keyboards very well.)

Yes the tune dictates the chords, but when you have a note that can only be played on the press, you can only use chords on the press, that may be inappropriate.

Personally I love the constraints of the melodeon. But I also like to understand the mathematics / mechanics of the instrument. I admire anyone who plays it naturally and love to hear single row and row crossing styles, with substitution chords etc. But I am not a natural player so I need rules to allow me to know what is possible. When I am comfortable with the rules the I can feel where to bend them.

If my postings are inappropriate here please advise

Hello and welcome David. I wouldn't worry too much about appropriateness wrt to most threads. Buy and sell seems to be an exception, where off topic posts get deleted. Generally, you should be OK as long as you keep your Kecks on and the post relates to the to the thread topic, at least in a broad sense.

P&T is talking sense. Hope this makes as much sense. From your post I get the impression that you play from music scores, rather than from listening and working things out by ear.
Speaking for myself, I find things seem to work better if I don't get too bogged down by dots and other people's chord choices. I am not blessed with a natural ear, so I am always quite happy to be helped by them, but make the tune my own as soon as possible. I'll nearly always make my melody,  fingering and harmony choices by actually playing around with tune, on the box. It may not be "better" but it's definitely more fun that way.

I think you'll find that the sort of decisions you are using notation to come to terms soon come naturally, with a bit more experience. Also, you will find that there are often work arounds. You might also find that up and down the row playing has it's own charm, if you try more of it. It's one of the things that differentiates the diatonic accordion (including chromatic melodeon systems) from  the cursed PAs.



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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

playandteach

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2019, 09:53:49 PM »

David, as you are new here, here are some tips for the forum:
1 Someone will persuade you to play a system that they favour: colour them pink
2 Someone will persuade you just to play the damn thing: colour them blue
For every other comment make a judgement depending on whether you are going to run out of hair.

Seriously though, this is a truly remarkable forum with absolute heros chipping in with free and valuable advice. I've learnt much from these pages.
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Serafini R2D2 GC, Serafini GC accs 18 bass

Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2019, 09:57:18 PM »

David, as you are new here, here are some tips for the forum:
1 Someone will persuade you to play a system that they favour: colour them pink
2 Someone will persuade you just to play the damn thing: colour them blue
For every other comment make a judgement depending on whether you are going to run out of hair.

Seriously though, this is a truly remarkable forum with absolute heros chipping in with free and valuable advice. I've learnt much from these pages.

 ;D ;D ;D

Very true. Personally, I love the passion people have for their way of doing things.
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Greg Smith
DG/GC Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, pre-war CF Hohner, Hohner 1040 Vienna style, old  BbEb Hohner that needs a lot of work.

ACCORDION, n. An instrument in harmony with the sentiments of an assassin. Ambrose Bierce

Julian S

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2019, 12:26:27 PM »

I think this is an interesting approach - and my view on melodeon rules is there aren't any !
Mainly playing a 2.4 D/G with very useful reversals - C, D, and E, and with G pull  and Em push chords as well, I often change between playing cross row and up and down - and choosing between doing runs on the pull, push or both. I tend to notate some tunes where I have come across the best combinations for me (and often revisit them or go back to up and down the row - particularly when playing for Morris or ceilidh).
I often wonder how I would have approached playing if there had been a forum like this (or even tutors to teach me), forty years ago. Probably I would be a much better player ! I just try to keep learning and the forum is such a great way to share experiences, tunes, techniques and ideas.

Julian
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 09:09:24 PM by Julian S »
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David Wilson

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2019, 09:01:19 PM »

Many thanks for your kind replies. My thoughts on written music is that I regard the regular treble and bass clef double stave as "Tab for the piano". My guitar performance (Classical, folk and rock) was much improved by the increase of "Guitar tab", particularly the publication of tabs for the three early albums of Ralph McTell (1976). Stringed instrument tabs are not new. Early lute music was in tabulature form. I think this stems from the fact that a note on the piano can only be played with one particular piano key. There is no ambiguity. Stringed instruments can play the same notes in different ways for convenience or timbre. For a beginner, the way that this is done in reality is a boon to progress. The same issues are the same for melodeon. There are optional ways to play the same note and this changes by style. I am making much better progress making my own "melodeon licks" similar to "guitar licks" that I can memorise easily.
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RF Music

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Re: info on crossing rows
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2019, 05:32:48 PM »

I think I basically use a combination of both row-crossing and bellows-jiggling, depending on the tune I'm playing. I prefer to play cross-row but there are certain tunes where that's just not possible all the time so versatility in being able to do both is often useful. I can't vamp basses to save my life - I sound like a parody of a melodeon player and I've never really got the hang of it! That has informed my playing style quite extensively as I don't often have those rhythm breaks between the fundamental and chord to make a quick bellows change to keep on the same row. My style of playing means working out what fingering I'm going to use and planning ahead so I don't run out of fingers which can be a bit time consuming but it's the way I'm happiest playing. It does give me the benefit of being able to have a bit more flexibility in using chords which might not usually be available if I was playing up and down the row though, so swings and roundabout being what they are.....
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