Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Garry Probert]

Hi videos on melnet facebook to accompany the post

https://www.facebook.com/gary.probert.5243/videos/pcb.3487478117944872/674496679686550/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/gary.probert.5243/videos/pcb.3487478117944872/674496666353218/?type=3&theater


 

[Gena Crisman]

Hi sebastion I have two 10 button liliputs in different keys ,One bass button one chord button obviously different on pull and push
Bass B/E notes (B Eb F)....(E Ab B) it comes in handy for

Ab Cdim Eb C#7 F Bb Eb run Or bach esk Bb Dm Gm Bb Eb Bb C7 F 

Hi lester the forward movement means how little movement is required to operate the addition buttons but also having an Eb pull chord and F push chord
Less bellows movement and i dont run out of air lol

So, just to be clear hear, you're saying you've added, to an otherwise standard melody side clubbed CF Lilliput, 2 additional bass end buttons, which operate B/E fundamentals and play a... idk I suppose I'd say fairly unusual but possibly very useful B major b5 chord (B D# Fnat) and an E major chord (E G# B).

For those who think in DG, you just add a tone to each of these, and you can see that B/E would -> C#/F#, which are the two missing fundamentals for full diatonic coverage of D & G, the main keys, which is most likely what he's alluding to with the runs, and then offers a C# b5 chord (so, C# with a G natural, rather than a G#, which probably is more useful) and an F# major chord.

edit - probably worth noting the B chord, if that's on the push, on a C/F, all Bs are pull notes. (Compare D/G C# notes all being on the draw vs a push C# bass)

However, including this comment you made on facebook:

Gary Probert Hi lester ! Bass B/E notes (B Eb F)....(E Ab B) i,ve given notes as after almost a year experimenting lol We wanted them to compliment playing in C and F so example (B Eb F) with an A (F7b5) and the original club Eb is now D Bass and chord Em

Suggests you've changed some of your other buttons in some way too - specifically, the Eb bass, the 'extra' fundamental/chord pair that a CF club instrument packs rather than unisonic Bb basses. And it sounds as though they've been converted from Eb (or D#) down to a push D fundamental (a reversal) and then kinda up to an Em chord on the press, so, in DG speak that would become a push E bass with a push F# minor chord. (rather than a F fun/chord)

Sooo I mean, wouldn't anyone who's gotten used to playing a club melodeon probably actually like, super miss that chord you changed? I'd encourage you to sort out a simple layout diagram or something - it's difficult to actually really get a complete picture of exactly what you've opted for.

[Garry Probert]

Hi Gena  I added two additional buttons to the bass side,two bass notes two chords on pull and push
because the space is limited for bellows clearance I have two mini reed blocks either side of the originals
the video might be backwards not very good with this internet stuff

I did not want a one piece 3d printed reed block and fondo  like darrens as i,m a silly traditionalist and like wood (even ply)

the treble /melody side is standard apart from changes on two accidentals 

Darrens is in D/G will get him to do a layout

The final layout is relatively new the boxes have been built for ages ,most of the experimenting has been the layout
So i,m sort of learning the possibilities every time I play.

I wanted to compliment the Lilliput for my jazz/pop  tunes not change its fundamental club layout   

[David Summers]

Thanks Seb, I'm learning a whole lot about harmonicas that I didn't know. And actualy is helpful for the melodeon - gives tricks to try.

In reality there is no seventh diminished chord.

First, you have to include the notes below the 1. There you have:

1 3 5 1 3 5 … (blow)
2 5 7 2 4 6 … (draw)

There you have a draw 5. If you go on, you have these notes on draw: 5-7-2-4. They form the complete dominant chord, even the dominant seventh chord.

Secondly, even if you go up the scale, you still have 7-2-4 which is a dominant seventh chord without the base note, but still working as a dominant chord.

Suspect this is just sematics. Is "7-2-4" really "5-7-2-4" missing the 5; or is it a "7-2-4" chord. Probably this will only be resolved in the conext of the tune its played in. Me though, I only look at missing notes in a chord, when its the third in a traid, or the 3rd or 5th in a seveth chord - to me dropping a note from either end still leaves a valid chord. (e.g. to give example, in Go Down Moses in G Minor "People" of "let my people go" is a CDF# chord; this is acutally a Dominant D seventh chord, D F# A C; but missing the fifth - A, and inverted ....)

So to make explicit, in the key of C Major; 7-2-4 is B D F; with all intervals minor third, and the gap between B and F a tritone; so playing this and the tritone will be heard. I guess though I speak as a singer, singing a tritone is probably the hardest interval to do - so in choral work use with care unless you have an evil streak! Guess though on a harmonica, its just a case of blowing the right three holes - and then seeing the chord in the context of the song.

Anyway, have now added to my list of things to learn on the meoleon, to play more than one right hand note at the same time ...

[Chris Ryall]

We're a bit off topic here, David particularly if he real is a 1-row player  The whole tritone thing can get pretty complicated, but is underpinned by the fact that only the 3 tone interval in a dominant chord matters.  That's right … every note in the chord can be changed and it will still resolve in the same way*    The same applies to the associated scale. You can change all 10 of the notes in there  and it will still be 'music', albeit not necessarily a thing of beauty.   That's why it works to play chromatic scale bits over the turnaround chord in blues.

This includes the *tonic!  A standard guitar trick is to replace a 7 chord by its flattened 7^th.  ie (key=C)

Dominant G7: G B D F  =>  Db7:  Db F Ab B(=Cb) … I've highlighted the tritone. It's "the same" 

OK it's pretty alien to folk music, but jazzers do it all the time. eg cadence | Em7 Eb7 | Dm7 Db7 | C - |  toward the end of Falling Leaves.  Eb7_{sub for A7} =>D.  Db7_{sub for G7} =>C.  The gain is that nice chromatic run and a "fluttering leaf" effect   

I wrote this article a few years back on things that work chordwise.

BTW the limit of note alteration is the so called Alt scale. Using key=F for clarity,  dominant chord now C7. The altered C scale runs:

  C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C  = C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb C, as there is no "Fb"

Quick step back in topic direction    my C#DG layout loves this sort of thing and should I want to play any manner of altered dominant scale, most of the  notes commonly lie on a walk between my inner and outer rows.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Beyond me, all this jazz chord sophistication. I'm a simple country bumkin. Three Majors and two Minors will do me.

[Sebastian]

It talked about the harmonica, because I think it is the 'historic' answer to the question

why the layout is what it is

The melodeon’s layout is the harmonica’s layout (with minuscule modifications). It had the advantage (among other advantages) that people could easily switch to the (more expansive and louder) melodeon. The one-row melodeon is cum grano salis still pretty much played as a harmonica. Whith two-row melodeons you get new possibilities like cross-rowing and combining chords with new basses, that transcend the harmonica’s possibilities. Hence considering new layout adaptations could be worthwile.

Is "7-2-4" really "5-7-2-4" missing the 5; or is it a "7-2-4" chord. Probably this will only be resolved in the conext of the tune its played in.

In normal harmonic context it is always a dominantsept chord without root note. (I don’t know any scholarly literature in English on this matter, but maybe the Wikipedia might be a starting point.)

singing a tritone is probably the hardest interval to do

Singing a tritone is probably one of the easier intervals to do. Because, first, you don’t sing the notes one after another, but both sound at the same time, sung by two voices, and secondly, the tritone appears during a harmonic and melodic movement at the penultima. Consider a tune sung by two voices in mostly stepwise movement. The end may look like this:



On the penultima the two voices sing a tritone, but I never encountered problems singing this tritone.

[David Summers]

Singing a tritone is probably one of the easier intervals to do. Because, first, you don’t sing the notes one after another, but both sound at the same time, sung by two voices, and secondly, the tritone appears during a harmonic and melodic movement at the penultima. Consider a tune sung by two voices in mostly stepwise movement. The end may look like this:



On the penultima the two voices sing a tritone, but I never encountered problems singing this tritone.

Well yes - thats the context of the music and how you got there. The one in Go Down Moses is similar, all voices start on the tonic; the lows then drop a tone, the highs go up a major third (and the mids stay put) - this puts the choir on a D7 Dominant chord on V; this can only go one place, and that is to resolve to the tonic triad. So none of the changes are counter inutative; means you can land on the chord fine, and then just need to know the clash - to avoid drifting during the note; which is the danger, either the highs or lows want to sing a perfect forth or fifth.

E.g. whats shown is the wish to move from the tritone to a minor sixth interval ... its one way in which a tritone can resolve.

[Sebastian]

whats shown is the wish to move from the tritone to a minor sixth interval ... its one way in which a tritone can resolve.

Yes. (It’s the only way this tritone can be resolved.) And if I would make a harmonic analysis, it could only by: D7 to T. (D7 = shorthand form for dominant seventh chord, T = shorthand for tonic chord)

If you would inverse the tritone, you would get the same result:



The result of the harmonic analysis would be the same: D7 to T. A tritone (in diatonic music) is always interpreted as a dominant seventh chord.

[playandteach]

Tritones can be resolved in 2 main ways, either by falling in, or by falling out. So the B over the F can resolve as you have it to the C over the E, but can also resolve to an A# over an F#. Admittedly once you have clearly established your key, you are unlikely to resolve the 'wrong' way, but that is why tritones are so useful - because they can be modulation catalysts. Sorry to chip in with something you probably already knew.

[Sebastian]

Tritones can be resolved in 2 main ways, either by falling in, or by falling out. So the B over the F can resolve as you have it to the C over the E, but can also resolve to an A# over an F#. Admittedly once you have clearly established your key, you are unlikely to resolve the 'wrong' way, but that is why tritones are so useful - because they can be modulation catalysts. Sorry to chip in with something you probably already knew.

I differ. A tritone B-F in a key with the given key signature can only resolve to C-E.

If you leed the voices to A#-F#, than you reinterpret retrospectively the former interval to have been B-E#, and in your thus established key of F# major the harmonic analysis would again yeald the same result: D7 to T. (If you are in medieval or renaissance or late romantic music or in free jazz, you might again have to reinterpret this T depending on the further progression, but all that is mostly outside of the realms of the melodeon, because it touches the borders of tonal music or meaningful harmonic analysis.)

[playandteach]

I don't want to stretch the thread to breaking point, but a tritone defines a heard interval (often written in its simplest form, regardless of key - as we do too with diminished 7ths). If we want to avoid this we could label it specifically (dim5th or aug4th) as those have implied intent. But if we are ripe to modulate we need a pivot point that can have enharmonic equivalence.
But I suggest that we both know what we mean and perhaps I was wrong to deviate from the intention of the thread in the first place. There was no intention to point score, and I apologise if that's the way it came across.

[Sebastian]

But I suggest that we both know what we mean

Yes. There is no difference about the music, just a clash of different theoretical approaches, of which (in my view) both have their significance.

[David Summers]

But I suggest that we both know what we mean and perhaps I was wrong to deviate from the intention of the thread in the first place. There was no intention to point score, and I apologise if that's the way it came across.

Indeed  I'm relaxed here. Guess I also can't ignore my background of singing in unauditioned choirs - where there are always people on tritones who pull a face "Is it meant to sound dischordant?"

On ride in think of where this started, its the "7246" on the pull, which gives "724" and "246" triads - which all differ from the tonic triad.

On cycle ride in to work today, which I count as free thinking time. Pondered if layouts can work better with respect to chord. What about:

Push: 25725725
Pull:   46134613

This layout does inetesring things with chords:

Tonic I: Can only do 13
Dominant V: Can do 572 and all inversions easily
Subdominant IV: Can do 461 and all inversions easilly

So its the tonic that suffers, and ona two row fouth appart box, the tonic triad and all inversions will be on the other row.

So if the diatonic is in the major, this would give easy access to all major triads. Its terrible for minor chords, then you would need to start from a minor diatonic.

Anyway just intend as a point of dicussion, I'm not actually suggestion we build one of these, instead just consider what consequences it would have ...

[Sebastian]

I'm not actually suggestion we build one of these

But that’s what I would want a programmable electronic melodeon for, like a Streb or a Roland. To try new layouts in practice and to see, how versatile they are in real life.

[blue eyed sailor]

Three Majors and two Minors will do me.

You should strongly consider the "third" Minor IMO (don't know which one you're leaving out, I guess it's the chord actually on the third step, Mi or - talking DG - F# and B) - it's so nice (and widely used for accompanying slow Irish airs and similar).

For me, it's three major and three minor chords (and from time to time one diminished, on C# resp., again, F#), as long is there's no "modulating" movement sidewarts...

Best wishes - Wolf

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Three Majors and two Minors will do me.

You should strongly consider the "third" Minor IMO (don't know which one you're leaving out, I guess it's the chord actually on the third step, Mi or - talking DG - F# and B) - it's so nice (and widely used for accompanying slow Irish airs and similar).

For me, it's three major and three minor chords (and from time to time one diminished, on C# resp., again, F#), as long is there's no "modulating" movement sidewarts...

Best wishes - Wolf

  I was being a bit flippant, I'm afraid. I was referring to the guitar 5 chord trick. In G major, that would be G, D, C, Em, Am. In D major D, A, Em, Bm. In practice, this would become a 6 chord trick with m7ths where needed. Depends on which box I'm using (they all give different options). So, in G major G, D, C, Em, Am7, Bm7 or Bm. In D major, D, G, A, Em, Bm7 or Bm, F#m7 (with a right hand F#) or F#m. What I have never used is the diminished chord.

I know other chord options are available, but life's too short.

[Chris Ryall]

Not at all. I … 3,4 or 5 chord trick all the time. A song might work for me in say F or G, but I'll risk awkward top notes to play in G as my fingers know the chords there so well. 

Similar choice between C and D. The C chords feel more automatic, and being able to hold a C drone and play Rt end against that opens up all manner of sus effects

Don't knock diminished chords. We all use a modulation from Am to A7 to move "up" a # from G to D, maybe without even realising it.  Dim chords take you "down" a key, circle of chords-wise

They are also are the ultimate in tritone stuff! eg C° is C,Eb,F#, A and that's two [C,F#], [Eb,A] tritone intervals!

The scale is amazing too, not to sing to, but (semitone start) C Db Eb E F# G A Bb C has four major chords eg CEG;  7s eg CEGBb, and minors eg ACE hidden in there! 🤔 flexible, or what! But yes, this is tonal stuff, and leads in jazz directions

But it's there even on 2 rows. The ii,V, i for E minor starts F#^semidim (= 4 touching buttons on G row, pull), and the dominant is B7. The latter needs a D# acc, but is the reason that our push B left end chord is major! As ever, the 2-row box is magical in its home keys …