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[Theo]

[[ADMIN]]

Let’s keep it polite and courteous please and try to keep to the topic of playing in A.

[Peadar]

This is also true of Melodeons and one of challenges perhaps for anyone picking up a "traditional" diatonic instrument  for the first time in the internet age is to find the version of the instrument which was adopted in the ethno-linguistic tradition of your location.

And I suspect that you are wrong about the DG box in another posting in this thread and that the DG has been imported by the same white settlers who threaten the same ethno-linguistic tradition.

https://seonaidhmacintyre.wordpress.com/      Torlum Sessions- John Alex MacKay- DG  (& PA)

Not sure quite what you mean here Peadar. Is this an example of something common in your area within the 'ethno-linguistic tradition', or a rare exception? When I lived in Kintail many years ago I don't recall ever coming across a DG box, whereas a   my BC, if not a common thing, was something musicians could relate to.

Check out the link. How common DG boxes are vis a vis other tunings I do not know.

[MikeK]

Just come back from my hols. on South Uist. Had a nice wee session with John Alex at his home.
The poor fellow is suffering from MAD. He has a large selection of boxes. Mainly D/G and has also
sold a couple of them on the island. To play Gaidhlig music, he prefers the B/C.

[george garside]

the DG box that I prefer for playing in A is my castagnari lilly  ( nodified to 4th button start with extra low notes following 'melodeon' pattern of repeat every 4 on push and 5 on pull which I find very useful )  it works fine in A as I tend not to use the bass much any way playing as a sort of cross between a concertina and a fiddle.  Nobody has ever commented on the lack of G# - perhaps that's because I'm a good faker , so to speak!

george
 

[Peadar]

Just come back from my hols. on South Uist. Had a nice wee session with John Alex at his home.
The poor fellow is suffering from MAD. He has a large selection of boxes. Mainly D/G and has also
sold a couple of them on the island. To play Gaidhlig music, he prefers the B/C.

He only admitted to a DG when I met him at the Ceolas summer school....he brought it (one of them?) in one day and we had a couple of tunes in the back of his minibus at lunchtime. 

[Stiamh]

Nobody has ever commented on the lack of G#...

Yes.... but an absence of comments doesn't necessarily mean nobody disapproves. (It might mean everyone listening has cloth ears, I suppose.)  

Joking aside, faking the odd accidental G# is one thing. Not having a G# in an A-major tune loaded with G#s is another. You might be happy without, but I wouldn't be. 

[richard.fleming]

Nobody has ever commented on the lack of G#...

Yes.... but an absence of comments doesn't necessarily mean nobody disapproves. (It might mean everyone listening has cloth ears, I suppose.)  

Joking aside, faking the odd accidental G# is one thing. Not having a G# in an A-major tune loaded with G#s is another. You might be happy without, but I wouldn't be. 

Anyway you are the musician, so you should  mind a bum note even if no-one else notices, IMHO.

[David Summers]

Joking aside, faking the odd accidental G# is one thing. Not having a G# in an A-major tune loaded with G#s is another. You might be happy without, but I wouldn't be. 

Last night when going to sleep, I pondered the opposite question, how many common tunes do or don't contain a 7th. Or equivalently can or can't be played up a fifth from the key of the instrument.

Twinkle Twinkle Little star has no 7th
My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean has no 7th - bit surprising as it has I think every other note, it tends to avoid semitone changes in note, and instead does minor thirds ...
Ba Ba Black Sheep - depends on if you use the Twinkle Twinkle tune, or elaborate with 67865
Londons Burning - yes has 7th quavers in, not a huge number - but they are there.

So these common tunes, only half have a 7th, and thats on a quaver on a quick run.

Think the main place I know it is as a lead into the tonic, used at times. As just a lead in probably it can be dropped.

So out of interest what are most melodeon/folk tunes like, how often do they use a 7th, and what is it used for?

[Stiamh]

Joking aside, faking the odd accidental G# is one thing. Not having a G# in an A-major tune loaded with G#s is another. You might be happy without, but I wouldn't be. 

Last night when going to sleep, I pondered the opposite question, how many common tunes do or don't contain a 7th. Or equivalently can or can't be played up a fifth from the key of the instrument.

Twinkle Twinkle Little star has no 7th
My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean has no 7th - bit surprising as it has I think every other note, it tends to avoid semitone changes in note, and instead does minor thirds ...
Ba Ba Black Sheep - depends on if you use the Twinkle Twinkle tune, or elaborate with 67865
Londons Burning - yes has 7th quavers in, not a huge number - but they are there.

So these common tunes, only half have a 7th, and thats on a quaver on a quick run.

Think the main place I know it is as a lead into the tonic, used at times. As just a lead in probably it can be dropped.

So out of interest what are most melodeon/folk tunes like, how often do they use a 7th, and what is it used for?

Are you winding us up there David?

[Tone Dumb Greg]

Anyway you are the musician, so you should  mind a bum note even if no-one else notices, IMHO.

I don't think George is suggesting you should play bum notes, though.

So far as Stiamh's point about 7th heavy tunes goes, playing solo you might struggle, playing with others, the odds are no one will notice.

[Steve_freereeder]

Anyway you are the musician, so you should  mind a bum note even if no-one else notices, IMHO.

I don't think George is suggesting you should play bum notes, though.

Absolutely not! There is a complete difference between (a) playing a wrong note and (b) adapting the tune by playing an alternative note in order to cope with the musical limitations of one's instrument. It's (b) which George is referring to as 'faking it'. It's a noble art and to do it successfully is a mark of a good musician.

[Theo]

I think you have to pick the A tunes that work on a DG box.   There are lots of them.  It's also a big help to have G# an octave above the one usually found on a DG.   More tunes seem to use the high 7th, at least they do on the ones I play.

[Stiamh]

Alternative notes... OK. Another alternative is to refrain from attempting a tune, or to sit out on one that is being played in a session, if you haven't got the notes the tune requires.

I've seen melodeonistas doing the faking thing with various tunes on YT and sometimes it is very unconvincing. An example that springs to mind is a rendition of that lovely if somewhat hackneyed tune La Partida on a D/G. A number of important accidentals were not available to the player of course.

Now while melodeonistas might be tempted to applaud and say, how clever, managing to play that tune on our instrument, I think they need to take off their melodeon-shaped spectacles (or should that be earphones?). Because if you know the tune, hearing it with the real notes being "faked" is just awful, cringeworthy. Noble? Not in my view 

(Rewritten to tone down the language)

[Matthew B]

I've been working my way through Tom Anderson and Pam Swing's Shetland tune book "Hand Me Doon Da Fiddle".  Most of the tunes are in D or G but there are a few in A, for example the "Unst Bridal March", "Da Bride's a Bonnie Ting", and "Maggie O' Ham".  I've been playing them on a 2.4 row D/G Liliput with a "regular" accidental G# and a high G# on the extra row.  It takes a bit of practice, but I find it pretty straightforward after a while. 

The tunes tend to be up on the knee end of the keyboard, and the combination of the higher notes, the different fingering and the switch in the press-draw sequence really changes the way the instrument sounds.  It's quite an education. 

It's even possible to fake some bits of oom-pah left hand for A tunes.  What I'm striving towards now is the strategic little left-hand hits the Irish semitone players use, where seemingly out of nowhere they plug in a chord or a bass note when the melody is going in the right direction. I know there's a structure to this approach, I just can't figure out how it works.  I've heard that the general idea is to use the left hand like the regulators on a set of pipes. Sadly in my ignorance I can make little use of this advice.  Any pointers from the ITM cognoscenti would be much appreciated! 

[smiley]

Another alternative is to refrain from attempting a tune, or to sit out on one that is being played in a session, if you haven't got the notes the tune requires.

I'd just like to say that several times I've had revelations about how to play tunes with 'non-standard' notes or in unusual keys on my D/G box when playing along quietly in a session. These would be tunes that I know well and probably already play on another instrument. Of course I sit out when I hear an unfamiliar tune being played (and if its any good I'd try to grab a sound recording). Big sessions can be great opportunities to attempt things without drawing attention to yourself.

Stiamh would probably cringe if he heard me play MacArthur Road (in E major) in a session but that wouldn't stop me enjoying it 

[richard.fleming]

  I've heard that the general idea is to use the left hand like the regulators on a set of pipes. Sadly in my ignorance I can make little use of this advice.  Any pointers from the ITM cognoscenti would be much appreciated!

You won't go far wrong with that approach. The pipes are the only other instruments in the traditional range of instruments where any kind of bass or chord system is present, and they are used very sparingly by most players if at all. Watch some pipers on YouTube and see where they use the regulator keys. Tradition thrives on imitation.

[Stiamh]

Stiamh would probably cringe if he heard me play MacArthur Road (in E major) in a session but that wouldn't stop me enjoying it 

Might as well set the bar high if you're going to fake it No doubt you are providing an attractive harmony on those copious accented G#s in the first part? 

But next time, set the bar even higher: pick an Emaj tune that has some D#s in it... 

[Stiamh]

  I've heard that the general idea is to use the left hand like the regulators on a set of pipes. Sadly in my ignorance I can make little use of this advice.  Any pointers from the ITM cognoscenti would be much appreciated!

You won't go far wrong with that approach. The pipes are the only other instruments in the traditional range of instruments where any kind of bass or chord system is present, and they are used very sparingly by most players if at all. Watch some pipers on YouTube and see where they use the regulator keys. Tradition thrives on imitation.

Yes, a lot of pipers don't use the regulators - in public.     In fact use of the regulators varies from not at all, to the constant vamping employed by a former generation of players like Leo Rowsome, to more creative use by the best players today. (Leaving aside the music hall artist Patsy Touhey who played the first phrase of Miss McLeod's reel on the chanter and on the regulators simultaneously.)

The annoying thing about the constant vamping approach is that the chords tended to be on the on-beat and the off-beat - in fact on all four beats in the bar of a reel (and yes I know loads of people will argue till they are blue in the face that there are only two beats in the bar of a reel, please let's not start that discussion). If you're going to do it on the box, better to vamp on the off-beat only. And if you stay silent where the chords don't fit, hey presto, you've got a regulator accompaniment! 

[Graham Spencer]

better to vamp on the off-beat only. And if you stay silent where the chords don't fit, hey presto, you've got a regulator accompaniment! 

Not to mention nascent reggae ....... 

[David Summers]

Are you winding us up there David?

No - its a serious question. Dig into it a bit deeper - yesterday I was arranging The Bitter Withy for Folk choir, so its a good example to use. I was basing it on Cecil Sharp version:

Now this is written in the key of G Major, and so the 7th of the key is F# (an issue for me playing in C).

If you check the vocal line, never is sung an F#; it goes up to an E, and down to a G. This doesn't seem unusual for the vocal line, which is maybe where the confusion arrises; are you thinking of the accompanying line?

For The Bitter Withy, you can see that the piano line is written as chords, and some chords contain F#. First though consider chords, The critical chord is I guess the V or Dominant chord; the third of that chord is the 7th of the key. So in a key of G Major; the chord is D F# A. There the third is critical, as its sets up the dominant as a major chord, and this is part of establishing the key of G Major. So for that chord, yes the F# needs to be played to give the right feel. Maybe though it could be given to another instrument that has the F#.

Returning to The Bitter Withy, the first F# is in the bass line, on the chord where the voice starts. This is actually a G7 chord missing the third; the F# is the seventh. Now is the seventh critical to the chord, to my mind it isn't; the bass could just as easilly  play the note B, which is the third of the chord, not played elsewhere. This won't change the validity of the tune; it would still work, even without any F#. Now the reason the F# is done, is so the bass can do the decending scale, a third above the voice - so there was reason to do the seventh. But that just the arrangement, and could be changed.

So the seventh of the key, and how important it is to play, depends on the context. In the tune, yes its hard to not play it; but there exist tunes, like The Bitter Withy that don't have a seventh. In chords, the seventh can have greater or lesser importance; in a G7 the F# isn't so important, in D Major its critical.

So doesn't the context of the song need considered before you decide to leave a note out, or to change it? This isn't black and White is it? There are shades of grey here ...