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Author Topic: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG  (Read 1310 times)

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Stiamh

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2019, 12:57:25 PM »

While I agree with the "ornamentation is actually articulation" argument I have to say (sorry for the rant Dick and Richard) that I am a little weary of its being wheeled out in internet-forum discussions as some great truth or divine revelation.

I mean even the so-called "essential articulation" devices can be used to a greater or lesser extent depending on the player, the mood, or the instrument. To me they are just things we do to make the tune sound the way we want it to - things we do more or less of.

I agree, "ornamentation" sounds a bit precious. "Window dressing" sounds like disapproval.

"Little deedles" is nice, and Packie Manus Byrne referred to them as "twiddly bits", which I like - not taking things too seriously, and not disparaging either. :|glug
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Gary Chapin

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2019, 01:41:50 PM »

I was trying to learn this last night on a 1-row, and finding the b-part quite unsatisfactory for now; still working on ways round that, but ultimately, it's some form of ornamentation and the best 1 row players can do it without you even noticing -

I often look to one row players as my guide for this type of thing. I like Gilles Poutoux' version of Tripping a lot (https://youtu.be/fKQJ4xnSNH8). I like the pace and the general approach.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2019, 02:49:07 PM »

While I agree with the "ornamentation is actually articulation" argument I have to say (sorry for the rant Dick and Richard) that I am a little weary of its being wheeled out in internet-forum discussions as some great truth or divine revelation.
That's a bit harsh. 'Great truth or revelation'?
Internet forums like this one suffer from the same old chestnuts being trotted out time and again because members, especially new members, don't look back at previous discussions, and we have endless discussions about how many fingers to use, what way to set up straps and so on. If you take an active part in a forum you can't just ignore this stuff because you gave your opinion on it five years ago. I don't think you hold back, Stiamh, just because you've said it before, if you think it is still worth saying.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:54:10 PM by richard.fleming »
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blue eyed sailor

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2019, 03:39:37 PM »

I mean even the so-called "essential articulation" devices can be used to a greater or lesser extent depending on the player, the mood, or the instrument. To me they are just things we do to make the tune sound the way we want it to - things we do more or less of.

I agree, "ornamentation" sounds a bit precious. "Window dressing" sounds like disapproval.

"Little deedles" is nice, and Packie Manus Byrne referred to them as "twiddly bits", which I like - not taking things too seriously, and not disparaging either. :|glug

I‘d second this take - there‘s much to much „you have to“ and „you can‘t do“ in these discussions (my experiences stemming mostly from twinned concertina.net forums) IMO. What I think is true (albeit not complying with it sufficiently myself) is that variation is essential, and at some point the melody could be clearly put in the foreground. I value keeping the flame of a certain tradition, but since I have not been raised with any of them I stick to my rather eclectic approach.

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Mark Leue

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2019, 04:25:10 PM »

"Internet forums like this one suffer from the same old chestnuts being trotted out time and again because members
don't look back at previous discussions"

Yes, I understand that I did not research all possible threads to see if the subject, which I know for sure anyway has been brought up a number of times, was covered in the same way previously.
My own learning process may or may not have any relevance to other melodeon players.  It's fine to just ignore it, wouldn't that be easier than complaining that its already been talked about before?
I'd rather not make anyone suffer at all, but I do find other's comments helpful and where I live melodeon players are few and far apart, so that's why I am asking questions, which, I rather thought, was one of the  the purposes of this forum.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 10:35:24 PM by Mark Leue »
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Theo

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2019, 04:38:57 PM »

Mark you have raised a perfectly acceptable topic.  This is a discussion forum,  so it is quite normal for the same topics to come up from time to time.  It sometimes handy to look at old discussions but it’s quite ok not to do that.  I think it’s a bit like a conversation in a pub.  It’s sometimes helpful to recall what was said a few weeks ago,  but people naturally come back to popular topics.
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richard.fleming

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2019, 04:42:06 PM »

My remarks were not directed at you, Mark. I fully accept that things circulate on these forums. Your original post was just fine, and I think the tune is an interesting example when thinking of when to use of triplets, rolls etc.
Modified to add 'Thank you Theo'.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 04:43:57 PM by richard.fleming »
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Stiamh

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2019, 08:14:45 PM »

My remarks were not directed at you, Mark.

And mine weren't directed particularly at Dick or you Richard, or even at members of this forum particularly. (There is a prolific contributor to two other places on the net where I waste time who never misses a chance to trot out the old chestnut in question as if it answered all questions about "ornamentation" [or whatever you want to call it]). I think it makes a very valid point, but it's really not the whole story. That's what I meant. Sorry for any offence caused (as always - believe it or not).
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2019, 09:22:54 PM »

I find it difficult to follow topics like like this in the total absence of people posting audiio examples of what people mean by what they write. The impact of points is completely lost, for those who don't know, already, all about the subjects under discussion.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 09:24:52 PM by Tone Dumb Greg »
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Mark Leue

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2019, 10:38:45 PM »

My questions were fairly pointed and referenced a specific recording...  I'll post my own progress when it gets less ugly.  thanks for your replies, all.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2019, 10:53:43 PM »

Sorry. Not having a go at anyone Mark. Just curious. The only recording I can see referenced is Paul's (which seems excellent to me), but there there is lots of discussion of other, more "Irish" ways of ornamenting  it. It would be so much more understandable if I could actually hear what people mean, rather than just see a sequence of notes.
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Greg Smith
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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2019, 11:59:31 PM »

Sorry. Not having a go at anyone Mark. Just curious. The only recording I can see referenced is Paul's (which seems excellent to me), but there there is lots of discussion of other, more "Irish" ways of ornamenting  it. It would be so much more understandable if I could actually hear what people mean, rather than just see a sequence of notes.
I actually posted a similar comment, along the lines of 'more show - less tell'. But then I removed it, as I thought I might be stirring the mud. The point I was trying to make was that we should be encouraging experimenting rather than laying down rules. Mark, I can't see anyone in these sorts of comments shooting at you - exactly the opposite, so please keep your valuable contributions coming.
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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2019, 12:12:39 AM »

What P&T said. Mark. Definitely not directed at you. Just a comment on a problem on I have with knowledgeable people describing things without an audible reference. Music is about sound and not sight, anyway. Without being able to hear it it doesn't really describe it.
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Stiamh

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2019, 01:36:49 AM »

I agree that it would be a great pity if people felt disinclined to post their recordings of the tune because their interpretation didn't conform to a particular way of playing.

Although it seems to be an Irish tune it is played a great deal in England and in France (outside the Irish-music fraternity there, largely thanks to Tony Hall), and I think people should do whatever they like with it without worrying about any Irishness or lack thereof in their playing.

At the same time I understand Greg's frustration and I would be happy to attempt an explanation of what people - some people  ;) - are talking about when they say that certain grace notes and extras serve the purpose of articulation and not decoration. But perhaps we should look at it somewhere else, or in another thread?
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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2019, 04:26:53 AM »

You might be interested in hearing how the tune was played back in 1921 - probably the earliest sound recording in existence of someone playing this jig.
Frank Quinn was an Irish born entertainer who recorded the tune in New York as "Trip It Up The Stairs".

https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/cid-230740

He plays the modern B part first on what sounds like a one-row melodeon. Interestingly (to me, anyway) some of his "twiddly bits" sound similar to how Paul Young played them on the D row in his video mentioned in the original post.

Listening to this 1921 recording reminded me that 'traditional' musical styles (including ornamentation of course) inevitably change with the fashions of each generation. Playing your box in a 1920's style could be a lonely furrow to plough when everyone wants to sound like the latest flash young 'traditional' band hitting the big time in Ireland!
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richard.fleming

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2019, 08:57:47 AM »

You might be interested in hearing how the tune was played back in 1921 - probably the earliest sound recording in existence of someone playing this jig.

Fascinating. At this point the project of developing a button accordion style that echoed styles of playing old-established traditional instruments, finding ways of imitating 5-note rolls on the box for example, had got going. (Deliberately avoiding using 'ornamentation' here!). But it would be fascinating if someone could find a recording of someone playing it on the fiddle from that period too. Any volunteers?
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Stiamh

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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2019, 03:09:56 PM »

Interestingly (to me, anyway) some of his "twiddly bits" sound similar to how Paul Young played them on the D row in his video mentioned in the original post.

Nice one, Ian! Had a hard time deciding at first whether he might "ornamenting" the first of the what would be Bs in dBB (in the second part of the way the tune is played today) and thus contradicting my advice above - but I think he's "cutting" them dB{c}B - which (Greg) is an example of a grace note used as articulation, to separate two notes of the same pitch.

Frank Quinn's recording of the Four Courts (a tune that he definitely chopped about to fit on the one-row) is a lot of fun, with exuberant lilting in the middle of it.
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Re: Learning "tripping up the stairs" ornaments for DG
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2019, 05:55:27 PM »

I can hear the “ twiddly bits” happening but I could not tell you what’s happening, but to me its more about the feel of the jig given when playing the tune more than the notes being played in the tune.

The Frank Quinn’s recording B part shows what I mean. Da bump Da bump Da bump
This may just mean I’m more of a responds to rhythm than melody or notes type (:)
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