Melodeon.net Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Welcome to the new melodeon.net forum

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic  (Read 1394 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Peadar

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 474
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« on: August 23, 2019, 08:43:11 AM »

MAD struck again... this time in the form of a 2x2 stop semitone box in C/C#.

It is of course unbranded & tuned to A435 but seems reasonably in tune with itself. By the tone and volume brass reeds. I have yet to open it up but expect to find long plates..

Nice lightweight but throaty back end. I think this was probably marketed as a ladies accordion- the straps both bass and thumb were of a green brocade webbing- not the oil cloth I have seen on other old unbranded/sales-branded accordions.

Being pedantic...is this technically a British Chromatic Accordeon?

Don't know why I thought a semitone box with a 2 x 2 spoon bass arrangement might be any different to a  single row with 2 basses (Fundemental on push/ 5th on draw)....it isn't.

So the basses are C/G  and C# G# and what use the sharp basses are isn't obvious to me right now.

It does occur to me that if I think of the box  as C#/D then  basses(not difficult if you have a poor sense of pitch and if my reading is correct a pre B/C practice in Ireland- also recommended by Peter Wyper before he invented the B/C tuning).  If I play it that way the inner basses become D/A and the outer C#/G#....which inverts the situation rather than making it go away.

This is something of an accademic question, since as yet I don't play across the rows at all.


(1st Edit to remove typos &c., 2nd Change title)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 09:29:54 PM by Peadar »
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

boxer

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 380
  • B/C Pokerwork - ultimate ceili box
Re: New Toy.....
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2019, 07:15:18 PM »

I think that British Chromatics are usually 3-row B/C/C#
Logged
Nuage, Tommy, Cairdin, 
Double Ray DLX 21x12, Black Dot,
Pre-Erica, Pokerwork
plus various stringed things

Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3996
  • Windjammer
    • Wesson Accordions
Re: New Toy.....
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2019, 08:16:55 PM »

The original British Chromatics were C/C#. I have several old tutor books here somewhere.
Logged
Rees Wesson (accordion builder and mechanic)
Gungrog, Welshpool, Wales, UK
www.melodeons.com

boxer

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 380
  • B/C Pokerwork - ultimate ceili box
Re: New Toy.....
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 08:51:36 PM »

I stand corrected
Logged
Nuage, Tommy, Cairdin, 
Double Ray DLX 21x12, Black Dot,
Pre-Erica, Pokerwork
plus various stringed things

Tone Dumb Greg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2302
  • DG Pokerwork, DG 2.4 Saltarelle, CF Hohner, 1040C
    • Dartmoor Border Morris
Re: New Toy.....
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 09:03:21 PM »


This is something of an accademic question, since as yet I don't play across the rows at all.


I don't want to be contrary and it's nothing to do with me, but I think it's worth saying that, if you're still playing purely on the row it would be easy peasy for you to switch  to a DG. Chromatic systems don't actually involve cross rowing in the same sense. I'll leave it at that. Don't want to hijack your thread.
Logged
Greg Smith
Is not the space between Heaven and Earth like a bellows?
It is empty, but lacks nothing.
The more it moves, the more comes out of it.
Lao Tzu

Peadar

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 474
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
Re: New Toy.....
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 12:29:57 AM »

I think it's worth saying that, if you're still playing purely on the row it would be easy peasy for you to switch  to a DG. Chromatic systems don't actually involve cross rowing in the same sense.

Fair comment.  I have just been gradually (over  a period of months)  discovering that the B/C smitone box is as fundementally Highland as the DG box is English. When in Rome and all that. Not sure I really want to play a B/C box beyond learning how to fumble my way across the keyboard.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 11:59:12 PM by Peadar »
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2019, 07:32:30 AM »

Lots of people talk on this forum about the BC box being difficult, but it would be best to ignore that as it is inherently no more difficult than any other system and has some serious advantages. Irish and Highland music is pre-harmonic anyway so restricted bass possibilities should not be an issue.
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Winston Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2100
  • AKA Edward Jennings
    • "Our Luxor B&B" Luxor life, slice by slice.
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 01:54:03 PM »

"Lots of people talk on this forum about the BC box being difficult, but it would be best to ignore that as it is inherently no more difficult than any other system"

That used to be my (uneducated) opinion. But, from the assertions of other B/C players, it would seem that I was altogether wrong! See:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22326.0.html


Logged
Although I can carry on messing with melodeons, the ongoing attention of the Ministry of Truth and the Thought Police will (no doubt) eventually teach me to really love Big Brother!

Peadar

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 474
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 09:27:51 PM »

Savour this moment Winston Smith - today you are on precisely 1984 posts.
....and Big Brother still hasn't caught up with you!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 09:37:41 PM by Peadar »
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

Anahata

  • This mind intentionally left blank
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4970
  • Oakwood D/G, C/F Club, 1-rows in C,D,G
    • Treewind Music
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 09:33:35 PM »

Well played, sir!  :|glug
Logged
I'm a melodeon player. What's your excuse?
Music recording and web hosting: www.treewind.co.uk
Mary Humphreys and Anahata: www.maryanahata.co.uk
Ceilidh bands: www.fourhandband.co.uk www.barleycoteband.co.uk

Bill Young

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1085
  • Paolo Soprani BCC#
    • Button Box Forum
Re: New Toy.....
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 10:42:24 PM »

I think that British Chromatics are usually 3-row B/C/C#

“The Hohner Melodeon and Button-Key Accordion Tutor for 1, 2 and 3 row instruments in BRITISH CHROMATIC TUNING by Capt. J. REILLY” (pub M. HOHNER LIMITED, London, 1954) equates British Chromatic tuning with a half-step or a semitone apart, i.e. B-C, C-C# and B-C-C#.

I thought this anachronism had died years ago. It makes more sense to describe a box by the row tuning e.g. BC, BCC#.

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 11:53:41 PM »

"Lots of people talk on this forum about the BC box being difficult, but it would be best to ignore that as it is inherently no more difficult than any other system"

That used to be my (uneducated) opinion. But, from the assertions of other B/C players, it would seem that I was altogether wrong! See:

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,22326.0.html
I don't think so. And that topic referenced above is pretty confused and confusing, to be frank.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 07:21:12 AM by richard.fleming »
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

Peadar

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 474
  • Is e an gniomh a dhearbhas.
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 08:11:52 AM »

Lots of people talk on this forum about the BC box being difficult, but it would be best to ignore that as it is inherently no more difficult than any other system and has some serious advantages. Irish and Highland music is pre-harmonic anyway so restricted bass possibilities should not be an issue.

It is not a matter of the B/C (or any other semitone box for that matter) being more difficult, but it has a completely different dynamic once you try to play it in the most common key of Gaelic instrumental music i.e. D.
 It immediately becomes apparent as to why in Hiberno-English (and ITM worldwide?) a 2 row chromatic is called an accordion and only the 1 row is recognised as a melodeon.  Rather more subtley,the documented choice of G/G# by some early Irish players of chromatic button accordions also makes sense to me now.
Logged
Antoria 3 stop : International AD :Hohner AD & 1040/G  : Anon 19 key C/C#....and an alarming number of other melodeons which should get out more......

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 09:47:41 AM »

I think  the C#/D is ideal for Scotland's music because D and A are fairly straightforward, and A is easier than on the BC. I don't think in the past the C#/D was something that occurred at all, certainly compared to the publicity for the BC from the Wyper brothers etc. If it had been on the radar 50 years ago (when the Highlands were maybe more isolated) it might have well been taken up. But I'm surprised, Peadar, to hear that D is the most common Key. I would have thought it was A?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 09:50:13 AM by richard.fleming »
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

havaLaff

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 131
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 11:02:23 AM »

The vast majority of Gaidhlig tunes I play are in D.
I wouldn't change from a B/C or B/C/C as I need a G#. Especially for pipe marches.
Logged
I always respect my elders but they are getting fewer in numbers.

xgx

  • Bagpipes & Musette Boxes... and Banjos, luv 'em!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 967
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2019, 01:02:30 PM »

(...) I'm surprised (...) to hear that D is the most common Key. I would have thought it was A?

Just had a quick scan through Folksongs and Folklore of South Uist by Margaret Fay Shaw ...loads with 1 sharp, 1 flat and neither sharps nor flats ... err nowt in A that I could see...

In other publications, usually specifically aimed at fiddlers, tunes are predominantly in A (maj) and D see Fiddle Tunes of the Scottish Highlands pub. by Taigh na Teud (Harp String House)

Most pipe music (GHB) is written with either no sharps or 2 sharps in the Key signature the latter is A mixolydian ... 7th note is G natural
.....quite easy, at first glance, to mistake it for D
Logged
Graham

 N Cambs/S Lincs - UK   :|glug + :|glug:|||: = :|bl

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2019, 03:06:27 PM »

The vast majority of Gaidhlig tunes I play are in D.
I wouldn't change from a B/C or B/C/C as I need a G#. Especially for pipe marches.

There are 4 G#s on a C#/D. How many do you need?
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#

havaLaff

  • Regular debater
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 131
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2019, 04:25:27 PM »

 Seeing that the forum predominantly relates to D/G tuning, I never thought about the C#/D layout.
 It took me a while to sort the fingering on the B/C/C#, but now the only problem is the way I
 'Murder' a tune.
Logged
I always respect my elders but they are getting fewer in numbers.

george garside

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4858
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2019, 05:50:44 PM »

not quite sure where this thread is coming from or where it is supposed to be going …….so for what its worth   the BC is relatively easy to play in the 'sharp keys' and the CC# is relatively easy to play in the 'flat keys'  . IN effect put the two together  as a BCC# box and itys easy to play in both the 'sharp' and the 'flat' keys and provides the advantage of having more 'reversals' which can facilitate greater control of bellows direction.  Learn just 5 scales (including one for the 3 on the row keys) and you have the wherewithal to play in 12 keys.


 disadvantage  of 2 row semitone compared to  4th apart eg DG lies in the formers lack of decent bass  v  the latters  ability to thump out a good rhythm in its home keys. 

Advantage of 2 row semitone over eg DG lies in  it being chromatic  with resulting access to more keys albeit without much in the way of bass/

Advantage of BCC# over 2 row semitone and DG.  easily chromatic ( 12 keys)  with usually full bass availability (limited on 12 stradella bass trichord  and fairly useless on 12 'melodeon bass trichord)   

Disadvantage of BCC# over 2 row semitone and 2 row 4th aprt box.--------  Size, weight and lack of portability.

T
he above probably explains why I play  DG, BC and BCC#  - horses for courses etc...….

george
Logged
author of DG tutor book "DG Melodeon a Crash Course for Beginners".    Available on ebay as a 'buy now' item. Put in melodeon tutor book for full info.  Melodeon DG & BC and piano accordion tuition

richard.fleming

  • Respected Sage
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
Re: New Toy.....Old British Chromatic
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2019, 07:24:28 PM »

[quote author=george garside link=topic=24375.msg290644#msg290644 date=1567011044


 disadvantage  of 2 row semitone compared to  4th apart eg DG lies in the formers lack of decent bass  v  the latters  ability to thump out a good rhythm in its home keys. 

Advantage of 2 row semitone over eg DG lies in  it being chromatic  with resulting access to more keys albeit without much in the way of bass/


george
[/quote]

I play Irish and regard it as pre-harmonic music and think that 'thumping out a good rhythm' on the basses is a vice, but if you want to do that there are semitone boxes with mini-stradella bases. I have one myself, my favourite box as it happens. Best of both worlds.
Logged
Old Paolo Sopranis in C#/D and D/D#
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 


Melodeon.net - (c) Theo Gibb; Clive Williams 2010. The access and use of this website and forum featuring these terms and conditions constitutes your acceptance of these terms and conditions.