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Author Topic: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI  (Read 1883 times)

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playandteach

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2019, 09:05:51 PM »

Here's the sketch instead. Haven't got round to typing it up. Original key of C min.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 09:08:14 PM by playandteach »
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2019, 11:16:40 AM »

I'll turn it into written up dots. But looking at its interesting, you seem to have written it as 3/4 but looking at the notes, does 6/8 make more sense (aside from bar or 4 beats). The accidentals look strange, will need to understand though; looks almost like a key change during the piece ...
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fc diato

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2019, 03:31:45 PM »

Marvelous.... (since I still marvel at the knowledge and skill needed to do this). Thanks for the score!
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2019, 04:06:36 PM »

Just rolled back to the original post. The classical mazurka is a stressed 3/4 rhythm but modern 'candestine' style is 9/8, supporting a different style of dance that developed in Gennetines in the 90s

This one is definitely 9/8 "diddley diddley diddley".  She pauses (not always) between repeats and also pops in the odd extra beat, mid phrase ???  But that's OK in the modern style ... the (eg) Gennetines dancers just soak it up

Feel free to do similar things "as the feeling takes you".   One classic trick is to watch the best couple in the room and to 'accompany' them
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2019, 05:38:34 PM »

OK this is a work in progress, so where I've got to. The basic notes, don't yet have chords:

http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/SoupirsSousLaPluie.pdf

Created from the lilypond script http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/SoupirsSousLaPluie.ly

Comments. I've changed it to 6/8 to give the dotted crotchet timing. In the first section this works well, 9/8 changes the structure. Now where there is a tied quaver 4&5 note, this isn't always shown tied. I've assumed tied for consistency which in 6/8 becomes a crotchet. I half think that the first quaver should be the last quaver of a bar; then shortening the last crotchet of the repeat by a quaver and the repeat would be seamless. I'm not convinced with the triplet in the last bar of the first repeat. problem is merging the c crotchet and quaver to give a dotted crotchet makes sense in 6/8; but a crotchet plus a triplet is weird ....

After the repeats, the minim quaver quaver doesn't fit 6/8; its back to 3/4 or something.

Anyway this was created just from playandteach dots, he did the work, I've added little so far.

Next to try and align to what is played in youtube, to establish if it is 3/4 6/8 or 9/8; and mark the pauses with fermata.

Can comments on what has been done so far, shout - as I know need work is needed. So will try to incorporate in next versions.

Oh yes, on the chords, what does Delta, 8ve and [DC] mean ... as a vocalist I don't usually do chords ....

EDIT: OK just listened to the video again, it definitely sounds in 3 from the left hand; right hand is basically hammering out quavers. I don't think I've heard a dotted crotchet (but hard to say as right hand rhythm is different from left), are we sure those are right? This Mazuka is a new style of dance to me, so not yet used to the timing ....
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 06:02:45 PM by David Summers »
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2019, 06:26:37 PM »

OK, to get the right feel to what she plays, we definitely can't merge 4th and 5th quavers; and the long note does sound like a dotted crotchet. So music now back to play and teach, and I've also pushed this music through a synth piano, so you can hear it:

http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/SoupirsSousLaPluie2.pdf
http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/SoupirsSousLaPluie2.mp3

Now synth doesn't understand the difference between 3/4 and 6/8, and I'll have to see if I can change a piano for a free reed synth ...

EDIT: And now persuaded the synth to do an accordion of kinds, and have modified the above, sorry for the tacky music ....

And with playandteach chords I *hope* added - its new to me:

http://davidjohnsummers.uk/music/Melodeon/SoupirsSousLaPluie3.pdf

I'm not sure what the 8ve = octave means. And the chord names alone don't cover what No&Mi is doing with her left hand, but am not sure how to cover that. Also on listening I'm not sure that its two crotchets at the end of the second repeat ... 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 07:23:53 PM by David Summers »
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playandteach

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2019, 11:26:23 PM »

Bloomin heck. I didn't mean to cause such a riot. It's in 9/8 or a dotted rhythm 3/4 but that's a fuss to jot down when you are transcribing by ear hence the common short hand of swung 3/4. Sorry if it has caused work for you all. I did try to explain that the second time bar was a contraction.  But I think the chords are as I heard them.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2019, 09:24:05 AM »

No need to apologise to me! Must admit I saw your jpeg, and took it as an opertunity to learn this style of tune. So I expected a few hills on the way, understanding what you had done. Have to say, although I pick up tunes well, and can eventually write down the dots; I'm impressed with someone that can do it well eneough to get the key and the acidentals - I always need to do a play though of the notes I have written to check they are right. Its odd, I can sing them fine, but writing them down and I get intervals wrong by a semi tone or so. Its where synths are a help, they are a slave to the dots, and will just play what you've written, with sod all feeling, but 100% accuracy ...

Realsied last night, the crux that holds the whole song together is the left hand  action on bass and chords. Think it does bass crotchet, folowed by two quaver chords, each exactly aligned on the three beats in a bar. That structure repeats and gives the overall structure. I'll code that up tonight, becuase the crux is how it fits in with the dotted crotchet + 3 quavers; and minim + 2 quavers; the bass has the structure to refer everything too.

Oh yes how do you do dotted crotchet + 3 quavers; and minim + 2 quavers when doing 9/8 timming - I can't see how it will fit!
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JohnAndy

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2019, 11:30:29 AM »

Dotted crotchet and three quavers in 3/4 would translate into 9/8 to a dotted crotchet tied to a crotchet, followed by quaver, crotchet, quaver.

Minim plus two quavers would translate to dotted minim followed by crotchet, quaver.

(If I've understood your question correctly!)
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playandteach

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2019, 01:15:52 PM »

Dotted crotchet and three quavers in 3/4 would translate into 9/8 to a dotted crotchet tied to a crotchet, followed by quaver, crotchet, quaver. To

Minim plus two quavers would translate to dotted minim followed by crotchet, quaver.

(If I've understood your question correctly!)
Yes. Thanks for stepping in.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2019, 02:45:44 PM »

Dotted crotchet and three quavers in 3/4 would translate into 9/8 to a dotted crotchet tied to a crotchet, followed by quaver, crotchet, quaver.

Minim plus two quavers would translate to dotted minim followed by crotchet, quaver.

(If I've understood your question correctly!)
I've just listtened to it again, and yes - the three quavers aren't the same length! Its odd, until I listenned out for it I heard them all as the same length!

This evening I'll do the bass/chords first; then do a 9/8 version ...
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2019, 07:57:51 PM »

On in 3/4 is this the right sent up for the left hand? I've done the synth in piano, as the notes can be heard clearer, e.g. the midi format doesn't really do any lift between notes, which makes synth accordion hard ....
PDF Sheet Music
mp3 piano

I'll convert to 9/8 if I've understood the rhythm ...

OK last bar the left hand should probably just be a bass G crotchet.

The end of the second repeat isn't quite right I think ....

And for it done in 9/8 is this correct:

PDF Sheet Music in 9/8
mp3 synth piano in 9/8

And comparing to play and teach it begs the question are all Ab chords actually Ab7 chords. E.g. I'm assuming the melodeon doesn't have an Ab7 so is sounding an Ab bass and a Cm chord; but if this is the case shouldn't all Ab chords be Ab7 as I show above ...



« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 06:09:36 AM by David Summers »
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Grape Ape

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2019, 11:43:36 PM »

OK. I have made a video for Melnet. Here I played the tune twice with little differences each time. Mostly I tried to keep to the three time beat but at the end I find the pause unavoidable.
Comments appreciated  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZREciRgtb0

Roland I think that was really excellent.  Gotta say I am really amazed at this whole discussion. Kind of makes me wish I understood music theory. 
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Roland Carson

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2019, 09:03:44 AM »

Grape Ape ... thank you .... I'm also lost in the theory now  :D but i'm sure there is sense in there somewhere.
I have a couple of things that now help to play this tune which are :- I think there are 12 bars in the A part and 8 in the B, The whole tune works with three time rhythm even in the pauses except for the final bar between the last B and the next A where there are 4 beats in the bar and not 3.
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Roland Carson

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2019, 09:29:49 AM »

And also thanks Chris for your post. I assumed the same thing. The clandestine mazurka is different in its 'feel' from a standard French mazurka and I think that the lead dancer is also 'led' by the musician and so can respond to small pauses in the rhythm.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2019, 08:21:28 PM »

OK. I have made a video for Melnet. Here I played the tune twice with little differences each time. Mostly I tried to keep to the three time beat but at the end I find the pause unavoidable.
Comments appreciated  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZREciRgtb0
OK now I'm fairly happy with the sheet music, and having listened to what you have done - I'd b e quite happy with what you have done. You've got the 3 beats with the left hand just about right; and also got the 9/8 flow of crotchet+quaver repeat.

What would I have said, having listen to No&Mi and know what I would find hard. The main pause is the repeat of the A section where it goes back to the beginning, because it starts one third of the way through a bar, you get the one third of a bar of rest. Now if that is really freeking you, just keep playing the left hand 3 beats a bar- which is what you did second time round. This will at least get you used to the timing, when happy you could drop the left hand on that it as No&Mi does (think she also drops the left hand on the last bar of the reapeat, first time through at times ...).

The rhythm you got, but if not I say view the quaver as a lead into the next note. The quaver doesn't have to be an exact length, e.g. No&Mi has a far longer quaver than my piano mp3. The crux is that the crotchet + quaver has to add up to exactly the 3 bar beat. Also need to be aware that its the crotchet that aligns with the beat, so the quaver has to always come before the beat.

The 12/8 (or 4/4) bar play and teach had it a few bars before the end of the B section, and I agree with him. I'm not sure I like No&Mi way that the left hand beat just peters out. I would almost be tempted to add another chord beat to the end, just to keep the flow. Or maybe change bass+chord+chord to bass-chord-bass-chord. Do this as a trick just to get used to the timing.

The other pause is when the whole tune repeats. play and teach has arranged it so you can go straight into it; e.g. the last beat of the piece fits into the rest in the first bar. Alternatively just insert whatever pause you think right, e.g. treat like a rit - its your choice.

Oh yes, my piano version is slightly slower than No&Mi - which will make it easier to follow.  If you want to practice even slower, let me know and I can just turn down the speed in the synth. That may help tying down some bits, before speeding up. But not the synth has no feeling, e.g. quavers are exactly half the length of crotchets ...

Anyway as said in opening, having heard what you've done so far, I think you are pretty much there, don't expect anything I said here would be of use to you.

Regards,

David.

P.S. Oh yes chords on my piano mp3 won't be like yours, all of mine, except the Ab7 are univerted, and straight. Known from my melodeon, most chords are inversions, so sound different. I haven't worked out what chord No&Mi uses, and to be honest can't do that by ear - I'd need to use software ...
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playandteach

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2019, 08:36:01 PM »

I think you have missed a few times out but the rest of the rhythm is fine. The Ab chord isn't Ab7 but Ab major 7 which has a G natural. Lastly I would avoid writing chords in treble clef as they appear higher than the melody. I'm only responding because you asked. Not meaning to be critical.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2019, 09:06:16 PM »

I think you have missed a few times out but the rest of the rhythm is fine. The Ab chord isn't Ab7 but Ab major 7 which has a G natural. Lastly I would avoid writing chords in treble clef as they appear higher than the melody. I'm only responding because you asked. Not meaning to be critical.
Thanks P&T. Actually I take your comments as very helpful, you've come across as someone very skilled in music, so you know far more than I - so for me it helps whatever you say.

Oh yes, I wrote the chords out long hand, as I needed it on a clef with the bass notes, and its the only way I could see to do it, and be able to create a midi file to use in a synth. I agree that presentation wise it isn't best. Problem I had is that the bass notes are so low, to avoid *very* extended lines I had to go down to a tenor treble clef; and that had bass off the bottom, and chord off the top; but didn't use too much space. What would be the usual way of showing the left hand action? Put it on a bass (F) clef - that would have the chords as very high.

Oh yes the Ab7 was an Ab Major 7 e.g. an Ab note plus a Cm chord on top - which I presume is two buttons. Yes it has a natural G in it (note at the top).

For me setting out the music has been quite fun, as it forced me to learn what was going on. Its a style of dance I didn't know before. But as I was learning really was expecting to make mistakes ....

Thanks again for your words, and for doing the hard work in the first place of identifying the notes. I think you did most of the work in my layout, all I need to do was to understand it ...

On the ties - let me listen to what No&Mi does - think you had ties on thing like the high point in bar 10? That make no sense to me, to tie a quaver to a chotchet - it cross a 9/8 beat ....
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:10:47 PM by David Summers »
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playandteach

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2019, 09:22:36 PM »

If you want longer note than a beat in 9/8 but less than 2 beats you have no option other than to use a tie. The Ab major 7 doesn't need to be played (although you can as you say play a Cm chord) in the left hand, because the G is in the tune creating the correct extension for you there.
I don't think that most of us here would bother writing out the chords and bass notes as they are so clearly implied in the chord symbols. However you can use tricks like 8vb over a note to show that you should play it an octave lower than written. The only benefit in writing out the chords would be to show something unusual, such as a particular rhythm - we don't get to choose the inversions that our boxes play - so you could be writing something needlessly.
I'n glad you enjoy the process of writing things out. I still like doing it by hand as it feels organic, but it is so easy to lose slips of paper, that I type them up for safekeeping.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2019, 09:30:10 PM »

If you want longer note than a beat in 9/8 but less than 2 beats you have no option other than to use a tie.
Its not the tie that I don't like, its that it joins two notes on either side of a dotted crotchet beat. So it would be having a melody note crossing a beat, but not extending to the end of the next beat.

Anyway let me listen to No&Mi, if indeed its what she does, then yes add the tie ....

[Its odd, more experience I get with music, the more I get irritated when composers do something they shouldn't have, and didn't need to ....]
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