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Author Topic: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI  (Read 987 times)

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playandteach

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2019, 09:46:08 PM »

If you want longer note than a beat in 9/8 but less than 2 beats you have no option other than to use a tie.
Its not the tie that I don't like, its that it joins two notes on either side of a dotted crotchet beat. So it would be having a melody note crossing a beat, but not extending to the end of the next beat.
If I've read your point correctly, then it is an extremely common and necessary use of a tie. Doesn't matter whether the beat is dotted (compound time e.g. 6/8) or not dotted (simple time e.g. 2/4) the tie is the right way (not the only way) to hold notes into the next beat whether to the end of the beat or not. This is now a full circle. I wrote the tune out in 3/4 rather than 9/8 because it is quicker to write and easier to read - expecting that people would just 'swing' the quavers.

Happy to provide examples of ties if you still don't quite get it. I know this sort of theory thing winds others up in an aural tradition, so I won't add more unless asked.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2019, 09:47:58 PM »

I play, and feel dancewise the clandestine mazurka rhythm as close to

 9/8|  ♩{rest } ♪♩♪ |  (sorry, can't find quaver rest symbol!)

or "dee - da.dee.da" as said  :-\ it ain't easy to describe!

For the lead the dance is a quarter turn left, putting left foot behind, pause, and then 1¼ turn right to end up facing same way. The pause is "short enough to complete the last bit" and so varies with partner. The music asymmetry echos this so the rest is about 3 cochets

But very much a "feel" thing hence my comment about accompanying the best dancers. One is aiming  for lilt and sway. The gap is not idle. The lead has to transfer weight to left foot ready for the acceleration round. I "think" 2nd dancer still has right foot raised at this point ready to drop for same spin, but could any lady please correct me.

There's a bit of jostle in it. Good couples do move together as they spin to lower angular momentum. It's a far more intimate dance than eg waltz, and most find it the hardest to master.

soupir is formally a minim rest in French. But also can mean just a bit of syncope

The video lady definitely does not keep to this strict 9/8 though!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:51:02 PM by Chris Ryall »
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Grape Ape

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2019, 11:33:54 PM »

Chris I am always jealous that you get to attend these sorts of Dances, they must really be amazing!  Someday I have absolutely have to get back to France.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 11:45:51 PM by Grape Ape »
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Grape Ape

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2019, 11:44:55 PM »


[Its odd, more experience I get with music, the more I get irritated when composers do something they shouldn't have, and didn't need to ....]

Hmmm I think it is generally safe to say that the composer of a song is playing it as they like it to be played, however, one never knows unless there is a studio recording, or if the author is there to say. Playing live and with dancers adds other elements. Is it the end of a long night and she is tired?  Perhaps the dancers are assertive and leading her playing? Did she flat out make a mistake playing her own song as can happen and she pauses too long? Or is it exactly as she intends and therefore not at all her problem, but only a problem to those who seek to transcribe her tune into math?

I think the OP plays it wonderfully and does the tune justice.  I am not sure that it is necessary to time her pauses down to the second in order for it to still be the same tune.  That said, I have really found this thread interesting if not a bit (way) over my head.  I realize there is still time, but I really do wish I could read proper sheet music and better yet, write it out.  It sure would help with the learning of this tune which now haunts my dreams. You guys are great!
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2019, 09:14:24 AM »

I've got to say, perception is a funny thing. I listened to this tune and heard a master of her craft playing a beautiful tune exactly as she wanted to, totally in control of what she is doing, using techniques that enhanced the music and made it even more sensuous than it already was. She seems completely in sympathy with the dancers, who,clearly, love what she is doing.

The rhythmic variations (csll it rubato, if you like) breath life into the music.

Others seem to have heard something completely different.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2019, 10:58:00 AM »

Hmmm I think it is generally safe to say that the composer of a song is playing it as they like it to be played, however, one never knows unless there is a studio recording, or if the author is there to say. Playing live and with dancers adds other elements. Is it the end of a long night and she is tired?  Perhaps the dancers are assertive and leading her playing? Did she flat out make a mistake playing her own song as can happen and she pauses too long? Or is it exactly as she intends and therefore not at all her problem, but only a problem to those who seek to transcribe her tune into math?
Its a bit of a side line, but yes you are generally right. But its good to give two examples.

The Good: Gillian Welsh, Time (The Revelator) starts with an chord that is totally dissonant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdYG-Nh_AxU. David Rawlings that wrote and played this chord is totally clear that it was his intention to do this dissonant chord; so although it has been critised (IIRC "Was that guitar even in tune") - he has this right, and actually in this case makes the song recogniasable from the very first note.

The Bad: A great song, that shal remain namless, is based on the keys of C minor and Eb Major; it flips between the keys seemlessly, and that is part of the song. The general structure is the cadance 1345321, so in C minor C Eb F G Eb D C; but in Eb Major Eb G Ab Bb G F Eb. The crux being that the third is either a major or minor one, so as that starts both the ascent and the decent it sets the tone of that line. This is done throught the song, with variations - but in a single case, it sounds horribly like the wrong third was sung. Its not very notable, indeed you only see it when studying the song closely. But having seen it its clear that it should have been the other third. This is a case of where the writer and singer, has sung the wrong note.

But what in this case. Its far less clear cut. The song is ver strongly based in 3 beats of dotted crotchet. Those three beats are fundamental to the dance, and so set in stone. The left hand sticks fairly slavishly to the three beats. But what of the melody, usually that would also fit in with the 3 beats. In this case though it isn't clear cut, the melody is strongly tied to the bars; but actually not to the beats in the bar. The opening A segment, and the held note at the start of bars is just over a beat of three long; so its already a bit out of sync. The last 3 beats in the bar though seem to hold to the beat of the song.

So here the question is can you tie a note from half way through the second beat, to the first half of the third beat. Clearly its possible, but a bit freakish. in this case take bar 10: Eb G C Eb Eb C G; should the Eb Eb be tied? It kind of makes sense from the rise and fall, to just have a single high point; but its split over the beat in the bar.

So in this case, yes its probably the artist that gets to say whats right. Crux is can you hear it when listening (its a very minor lift in a very fast sequence, that must be hard to play, and is certainly hard to hear). But then what is to be done when typsetting the music, as done here. Its a tricky call to my ear. Play and teach may have other views, and actually its its not clear I'd give his view priority - he clearly understands this song better than I ...
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 11:03:12 AM by David Summers »
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Squeaky Pete

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2019, 11:20:15 AM »

I've got to say, perception is a funny thing. I listened to this tune and heard a master of her craft playing a beautiful tune exactly as she wanted to, totally in control of what she is doing, using techniques that enhanced the music and made it even more sensuous than it already was. She seems completely in sympathy with the dancers, who,clearly, love what she is doing.

The rhythmic variations (csll it rubato, if you like) breath life into the music.
I agree with this completely.
There are interpretations that can't be documented. Did Sinatra have all his asides, anticipations, hesitations and as libs written down? I don't think so.
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Grape Ape

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2019, 12:15:26 PM »

For the record I agree with Greg, but was just raising possibilities.

It all reminds of a band I was in what seems like a lifetime ago.  I was the drummer. The guitarist who was fairly creative would from time to time stop a song we were working and yell at me that I was off.  We’d work through the phrase in question, and sure enough there would be an extra beat snuck into one of the bars. I would try to explain how nightmarish that was to a drummer and how you couldn’t just add extra beats wherever it suits you. His answer was always the same: “That’s the song, make it work.” Somehow we are still great friends to this day.
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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2019, 12:43:59 PM »

Hi, I don't think No&Mi would mind me sharing this with you so I will tell you some of what she said:-

Hello, I saw your video. It’s in real progress compared to the first one you made. There are still some false notes, but not much. since last time I put the piece in partition and I can share it with you so that you can at least correct the notes, give the answers to your questions.
The breaks are interpretation.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2019, 01:38:24 PM »

Hi, I don't think No&Mi would mind me sharing this with you so I will tell you some of what she said:-

Hello, I saw your video. It’s in real progress compared to the first one you made. There are still some false notes, but not much. since last time I put the piece in partition and I can share it with you so that you can at least correct the notes, give the answers to your questions.
The breaks are interpretation.
This makes me even more amazed at how close play and teach was. P&T idenified the key, not in No&Mi notes - and P&T is right here, and something I find always takes much time. I'm stunned that none of us noted that the B tune is also repeated, and I now understand the "8ve" - wonder why I didn't notice that ....

Also interesting its marked as 6/8 e.g. "3 crotchets to bar" and not 9/8 "3 dotted crotchets to a bar"; what she plays has different "quaver" length, but not as extreme as 9/8.

Also interesting she doesn't have semiquavers - but the live performance clearly has some *very* fast notes .... Removing the semiquevers also solves the problem of the tied note that play and teach had, but I didn't like - so count that as a loss for both P&T and I :) (or should that be both P&T and I were both right !)

I'll update my version for consistency, and also as it has the key signature - but Noemie should be authorative.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 02:20:21 PM by David Summers »
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2019, 02:21:19 PM »

...The song is ver strongly based in 3 beats of dotted crotchet. Those three beats are fundamental to the dance, and so set in stone...

I'm sorry, but I think that's wrong. It's music. When it comes to musicality, nothing is set in stone. Everything is open to interpetation. The more skilled the musician, the more confident they can be in adding expression.

I think the posted video demonstrates exactly this happening.

The ability to keep good time is an essential part of musicianship (and one that I constantly fight to improve). The ability to depart from rigid time, when it feels right to them, seems to be a skill you get with advanced musicians. I think NO&MI playing is very, very, skillful.

I think all attempts at trying to turn interpretations into ABC code are probably doomed to failure, because the best musicians will not play it  the same every time. You can only codify one rendition.
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Grape Ape

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2019, 09:00:33 PM »

Glad to see she wrote it out with tab... will make learning it a lot easier than by ear, and this one is definitely on the to do list.
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2019, 09:38:43 PM »

OK I change mine, uploaded to the same place as before in 9/8

PDF Sheet Music in 9/8
mp3 synth piano in 9/8

Only oddities, tripplets are 1/3 of a beat,  in 9/8 a beat is a dotted crotchet, so a triplet become quavers. The chords in part B are bit frightening - will need to check I've done those right ...

Also should the cords in bar 16 go "c Cm Cm" or "c Cm G"

And the A repeat goes back to the start, as that is what she played.

Edit: Hmm looks like lilypond code that said write out the chord names, rather than print the notes, also changed the bass notes into chords - which isn't what was wanted. I'll fix that this evening ...

Edit: OK fixed and uploaded again. Alas the left hand is shown in the 2nd line. If I do it with letter just get chords, which was what was messing up the chord in the piano. I'll look into how to fix that. Oh yes - should have said, I also corrected one note, which I copied wrong from P&T. Only noticed when comparing with Noemie. Think P&T notes are 100% aligned to Noemie, with just a single chord shown different.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 09:56:09 AM by David Summers »
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David Summers

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2019, 09:58:22 PM »

I'm sorry, but I think that's wrong. It's music. When it comes to musicality, nothing is set in stone. Everything is open to interpetation. The more skilled the musician, the more confident they can be in adding expression.
(:) I occasionally arrange music, and you can only do good arrangements with rules. The trick is to know the rules, and when to bend, and when to break.

In this case the music is a dance, the dance needs 3 beats before staring again. Here she carefully set up the 3 beats, so you can tell which is the first - its the bass note, and you can count to three. Now she adds in delays, but notice how when she does she does not use her left hand. I suspect this is because of the dance, so dancers only need to lissen out for the left hand.

As a melodeon, there are some notes she can probably only get when playing in one direction. And this means she probably thinks about how something will play, and how fast she wants to play.

The music flows, it goes high and low, but doesn't jump by an octave I think. If you try big jumps, you'll fine they don't work well.

If there were no rules, and one didn't have to worry, you could just hit random buttons, and that would be allowed. But it would sound horrible.

Bach B Minor is one the greatest bits of music ever written, but its so tied to rules, that you can't see how it could have even been written.

I think everyone should try and write or arrange some music. Then you can see what a mess is easy to make. Then see how it starts to work when you use rules.

Yes with music we should all see where we can change and improve music.

As a singer, you quickly learn that the notes on the page are only half the story. You can sing the notes exactly as written, and it be brilliant, or terrible. Which words to emphsize, where you you draw breath, where do you make microscopic changes the timing, so you are still singing what was written but so can tell a story, its more than just the music. Where can you do a rit.

On thing I quite like doing these days, is to leave out a note, but sing all the notes sounding it. The trick is to have *very* good timing, so the pause has sharp edges - and although its a rest, you can almost believe the note is still there.
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Julian S

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Re: Soupirs sous la pluie NO&MI
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2019, 08:41:56 AM »

It is such a beautiful tune and it's great to have the pdfs which should help me to at least attempt to learn it (though transposing to play on my D/Gs will be interesting!). Thanks everyone for such an interesting discussion as well
It's far beyond my ability (not because of hitting the right notes but capturing the timing and feeling) obut often it's the journey rather than achieving the destination I find enjoyable and rewarding.

Julian
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