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Author Topic: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages  (Read 1676 times)

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playandteach

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2019, 09:11:46 PM »

I'm saying that for both systems : my point is that the price to pay is getting used to a different middle row (be it the dutch reversal for Heim 2 or the reversal + change for the G#), but that you have in either case a very consistent scheme all over the keyboard.
I'm curious about your 2 +2 layout, could you tell us more ?
Hi Y,
I've been talking with Marc Serafini today. He is out of 3 row boxes until late spring/ early summer next year, which gives me time to consider things. His diagram of Heim 2 is what I have on my 2 row, so I don't know if your earlier diagram is the right one. I have no G# on the C row - which looks like your MP diagram (just the 2 row bits) but like his Heim 2 layout diagram - so I'm back to being confused. Anyway my Serafini is the same as the 2 rows on your MP exactly (though I suspect that's the Heim 2 in reality) All Gs, no G#s. The really good news for me, is that once I confirm which is which, I'm already completely familiar with that bit, and will only have to learn the new 3rd row and extra basses.
My current thoughts are to sell both my 2 + 2row GC Serafini, and my 3 voice older DG Sander to put towards a 3 row Serafini - now I have to decide between MM and LM.
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-Y-

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2019, 11:33:42 PM »

Oh, maybe my long texts are unclear.
On this message : http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,24453.msg291269.html#msg291269
it's a general form of layout that I usually recommend: the Heim 2 is that one with (in G/C) : F, Eb and G# on the push on the 3rd row, and the Dutch reversal on the 2nd row.

On this message : http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,24453.msg291319.html#msg291319
you have (for the right hand only) the Milleret-Pignol layout. With the difference with the Heim 2 being that there are F, Eb and F# on the push, and the pulled G and G# are swapped.

The reasoning for the G/G# swap is to have a more fluid chromatic progression in pull. But I think if you're already are accustomed to the Dutch reversal, Heim 2 is a good option. The advantage of the generic layout here is, since you already have all the chromatic range on the pull, that you can decide which alterations you want on the push for the 3rd row  :
  • like the Corgeron system : Eb, G#, Bb
  • like the Heim system : Eb, F, G#
  • like the Milleret-Pignol system : F, F#, Eb
And so on. I'm under the impression that the Heim 2 may be more frequent, but to be true, I don't think it matters very much: you'll get used to any system you pick.

For the left hand, I'm 100% with Chris on this: it's very nice to have the 3rd row with only basses (it allows you to have all the notes on both pull and push). But of course it depends on your playing style. Chances are the usual 12 basses will cover your needs for chords in the home keys + neighbouring keys. But it can also produce a nice effect to use the power chords too. So, for that, it's up to you. (if you go for a bass + chords layout, take care in adapting it to the layout you chose on the the 3rd row).

For the MM / LM, it can be tough to chose! The rational point of view would be that LM is a lot more versatile than MM (but perhaps also more expensive). Depends on how you're attached to the tremolo :)
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Y.

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playandteach

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2019, 11:56:56 PM »

Thanks, Y.
Not a fan of tremolo - I have a very light swing at the moment, but I just wonder whether a single M voice will be a small sound for a big box, and I've never played Bandoneon tuning - only LMM, and not even that on a low pitched box.
I don't think Serafini charges more for LM, and I think the box is still light with the low reeds. I'm clear now that it is the Heim 2 I'd want. I don't yet understand how to make the choice for the basses and accidentals, though I am clear that I want G# in both directions, and C#, Eb and Bb in all octaves along with push F. I notice that the position of the home key 8 basses can vary between chin end and knee end - I don't know which is more friendly - perhaps knee end allows you to reach up with the stronger fingers?
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Schnorbitz

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2019, 03:38:40 PM »

I've been following this thread with interest. My 3 row journey took me into the original Heim layout which has its merits. I have though looked at Heim 2 and Milleret Pignol and can see the advantages that they also offer (often dealing with some of the issues that I have with the original Heim). The sticking point for me has always been the inversion on the 2nd row and the effect that would have on me being able to pick up and play a standard 2 row without the inversion. I don't know how 'reprogrammed' to the new system I would become. Bearing in mind I could just swap my two row boxes over it may not be such a problem....but it is a concern that I have.

Of late I've also been looking at Marc Serafini's 3 rows. Playandteach, just out of interest, which of his three row models have you been looking at?
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Gena Crisman

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2019, 03:52:14 PM »

I've never played Bandoneon tuning.

I think your DG is LMM? Perhaps you could slide some paper over some of the holes under the pallets, in order to block one of the M reed banks?

(edit and also maybe aiming to find a way to have a 3 row instrument for a while without necessarily permanently parting with non replaceable instruments)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 03:54:28 PM by Gena Crisman »
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-Y-

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2019, 03:54:52 PM »

The sticking point for me has always been the inversion on the 2nd row and the effect that would have on me being able to pick up and play a standard 2 row without the inversion. I don't know how 'reprogrammed' to the new system I would become. Bearing in mind I could just swap my two row boxes over it may not be such a problem....but it is a concern that I have.

I use regularly a standard 2 and half rows alongside my 3 rows, that's how I managed this particular problem. But at the beginning it was quite the mental sport  ;D
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Y.

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2019, 04:35:52 PM »

Thanks, Y.
Not a fan of tremolo - I have a very light swing at the moment, but I just wonder whether a single M voice will be a small sound for a big box, and I've never played Bandoneon tuning - only LMM, and not even that on a low pitched box....

This is just my personal opinion, but for me bandoneon LM tuning on a melodeon is nice in limited amounts, but after a while it begins to get a bit boring and I switch to play either glorious full-blooded LMM or light tremolo MM. I don't think I would ever choose an instrument only with fixed LM tuning.

Bandoneon tuning on a real bandoneon is another matter entirely. It has a different (richer? more seductive?) sound compared with LM on a melodeon.
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playandteach

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2019, 04:56:05 PM »

I'm not near my computer at the moment but it is most likely the Millennium model. The Alto is the MM one and the tenor is the LM one. Price is currently 3000 Euros. It seems exactly the same level of model as my R2D2 which he still sells. Only mentioning price to identify which model. I like the sound and weight and mechanism of this box a lot.
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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2019, 05:04:03 PM »

I agree with Steve, I wouldn't have a LM accordion without stops.
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Y.

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playandteach

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2019, 05:10:35 PM »

I agree with Steve, I wouldn't have a LM accordion without stops.
It would have a stop - for each voice alone - but I'm not sure that the bass voice would compensate for the thinner single reed sound. I only know the sound of small 1 voice instruments and can't see how it would balance against the rest of the box when not using the bandoneon tuning. Whereas I already know that I love a very light swing.
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Schnorbitz

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2019, 05:18:55 PM »

Quote
I'm not near my computer at the moment but it is most likely the Millennium model. The Alto is the MM one and the tenor is the LM one. Price is currently 3000 Euros. It seems exactly the same level of model as my R2D2 which he still sells. Only mentioning price to identify which model. I like the sound and weight and mechanism of this box a lot.

Yes, they look like a lovely box. Fingers crossed for the exchange rate sorting itself out.

For what it is worth, I like a single M on my D/G Handry 12 and do not feel the basses over power it. But if you already like MM then your current box it would seem logical to keep with this. I presume the sound would be no different on the three row.
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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2019, 05:21:30 PM »

Quote
I use regularly a standard 2 and half rows alongside my 3 rows, that's how I managed this particular problem. But at the beginning it was quite the mental sport

-Y- you have piqued my interest. I think I'll swap the reeds round on a two row this weekend and give it a go. It will probably not sound pretty, but it could be fun  (:)
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-Y-

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2019, 01:34:53 PM »

Playandteach, there are two good second-hand 3 rows on Marc's website. One is a 24-bass model (but not heavier than a 18 bass), the other a 18-bass model, but with 3 voices on the right hand.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 02:18:37 PM by -Y- »
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Y.

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(please excuse any misspelling or odd wording, english is not my mother tongue)

Roger Howard

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2019, 01:44:29 PM »

The Darwin is exceptional value. You can hear Marc playing it on his most recent video.  (:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjAz0gyvTjE
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 01:50:39 PM by Roger Howard »
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playandteach

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2019, 02:41:06 PM »

Playandteach, there are two good second-hand 3 rows on Marc's website. One is a 24-bass model (but not heavier than a 18 bass), the other a 18-bass model, but with 3 voices on the right hand.
Thanks, the ones I've got my eye on are over a kilo lighter. Also I'd be able to specify a couple of things - such as layout, and reed block construction. Marc usually uses cedar which I'm allergic to, but can do them out of other woods. Also the current price of those is a little lower still - for exactly what I'd want.
Thanks for the thought though. I'm still open to other instruments and models. As with most of us here, though, selling what we already have would have to come first.
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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2019, 02:48:21 PM »

If it’s GC then I think you are right to stick with MM.  On a DG  the LM voicing can tame the squeaky top end, but for GC that not necessary.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2019, 03:11:17 PM »

My vdAa is 3 voice on Rt end and I almost never use the third. For song I like L only, quite cello like, and LM for most tunes. i only pull in the tremelllo M bank when leading tune in a session.

MASSIVE fan of my 12 basses both directions.  it opens up amazing things on the right  :o end. don’t miss 3rds at all. If I want a G or G# affect in an E chord I dot it on on Rt with a spare finger. 

3rds also clash with cross chorded left stuff. They promote to a 5th when you change bass. That’s a #5  >:Ei If the triad was major - usually ugly?

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playandteach

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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2019, 05:54:13 PM »

As always, Chris, it would be great to hear how this works. I know you are shy of videos, but even a quick demo would be good to hear.
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Re: 3 Row GC Heim, Milleret Pignol, GCF questions about merits/ disadvantages
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2019, 09:58:06 PM »

In London “marching” but will see whatI can do on return. Please remind me
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