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Author Topic: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?  (Read 5802 times)

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The Oul' Boy

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Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« on: October 25, 2019, 03:37:28 PM »

Hi there, I thought I'd ask for your thoughts ('advice' suggests there's a right and wrong answer and as I'm discovering, there rarely is). I've been learning DG melodeon now for about 9 months, it seems to be going well, and I'm getting to the stage where I'm starting to move my left hand around a bit too (though I'm still oom-pah-ing, even if I can see more complex bass manoeuvres somewhere on the horizon) and to cross rows on the right hand for more than just the low E.

I'm currently spending a lot of time on a small number of tunes trying to perfect technique a bit. Two of these are Egan's Polka and Salmon Tails up the Water, nothing too complicated about them, but some useful things to learn to do more naturally all the same. I notice with both tunes that if you play them all on the row (ignoring the low E), there's a number of times in Egan's (e.g. 3rd bar) where you have to make a quick bellows reversal and back again to get the semi-quaver, and in Salmon Tails, various quavers where you have to do the same (e.g. bar 2). This can be quite challenging to get right and leads to a very bumpy version. A quick diversion to the D row with the wee finger on A/B button gets rid of most of these without clashing with the bass accompaniment (in Egan's because it is in a gap between basses, in Salmon Tails because it gives you D bass, which matches with the recommended chords in Mally's East Peasy Tunes; diverting to the D row for the high F# quaver in Salmon Tails hardly seems worth the effort though). But the one-row version is hardly jarring in this respect.

My question is, which do you prefer to do and is there a preferred approach in cases like this? I suspect your answer will be whatever works best for you and whatever style you want, but I'm interested to hear your opinions. I've learned to do it both ways but I think I prefer the row-crossing versions, but I don't just want that to be because I find it easier.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Warren.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 04:10:40 PM by The Oul' Boy »
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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george garside

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2019, 04:56:53 PM »

there is no right and wrong way and developing the ability to do either or a bit of both depending on the tune and the desired effect  works best for me.   Indeed some tunes eg m0rpeth rant are easier to  play using both rows.   This is not the same as  'cross rowing'  to accompany bass lead tunes where cross rowing is essential to get the treble notes going in the same direction as the desired bass notes which some players prefer.

george
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2019, 05:05:33 PM »

there is no right and wrong way and developing the ability to do either or a bit of both depending on the tune and the desired effect  works best for me.   Indeed some tunes eg m0rpeth rant are easier to  play using both rows.   This is not the same as  'cross rowing'  to accompany bass lead tunes where cross rowing is essential to get the treble notes going in the same direction as the desired bass notes which some players prefer.

Thanks George! In this case, crossing the row is about making it easier to play the tunes (for me anyway) and to remove the rather awkward double bellows reverse for a very short note; in the case of Salmon Tails, it also has the fortuitous effect of matching the bass better without having to do anything different with the left hand.

I'd be interested to know more about the two motivations for row crossing (e.g. are there cases where doing so to make the tune easier to play makes the bass worse, or requires more moving around of the left hand?).
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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playandteach

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 05:18:15 PM »

I think that the main argument for using the bellows for pitch is that it gives a bounce to the music. It is of course possible to play with a bounce without bellows reversals, but it requires thought and technique, rather than being inherent in the action. As a cross-rower, I do find my left hand often being too sustained - so that whilst I can (though often don't) create bounce in the right hand, I get sucked into letting my left hand drone on. Bad habits don't define what cross-rowing can achieve, though.
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george garside

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2019, 08:41:59 PM »

bounce or rhythm can be played both on the row or cross rowing  as can smooth (legato ) playing.   Getting the hang of  being able to do both is, to me , an inherent part of learning to play the instrument  rather than  just learning to 'play' tunes thereon.

Having total command of the box   is the absolute key to playing tunes well on it!

george >:E ;)
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JohnAndy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2019, 11:14:24 PM »

Hi Warren,

It's a good question.

I've been trying out your examples, fingering them both ways to try to decide which I prefer.

In general, when I play on the row with bellows reversals, the risk is that I don't manage the bellows reversals well enough, which can result sometimes in the rhythm not being quite accurate (not getting there quickly enough), or in one of the notes sounding louder than I want (sticking out).

When I play across the rows (which is my normal tendency) then the risk is that I don't articulate the notes cleanly enough to get as much separation and defintion as I'd like, and sometimes the notes run away from me a bit.

So I'd agree with George that it's a good idea to practice both ways to try to improve on these faults.

But meanwhile, for playing the tunes in a setting such as a session or dance, where I want to sound my best and not go wrong, I'd probably make the following choices in your examples:
1. Egan's Polka Bar 3 - I'd play the F# semiquaver on the pull. I find easier to play it neatly and less risk of something going wrong.
2. Salmon Tails Bar 2 - whole bar on the push, so last semiquaver (A) on the D row.
3. Salmon Tails Bar 3 - second beat (A BA) all on the pull. Allows me to play the Pah (D chord) slightly longer so it sounds under both the B and the start of the A, which I like.
4. Salmon Tails High F-sharps - there are three, and I play them all on the pull on the G row. It's nice to play a separate chord under each of the six quavers in bars 15 and 16 (bass and chord button together): G D Em Bm C D (G) - so that choice determines which fingering I use for the F-sharps.

How does that compare with the fingerings that you prefer?

John  (:)
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Mike Hirst

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2019, 12:12:32 AM »

This version of Egan's Polka can be played in  four different keys on the D/G melodeon:

Code: [Select]
X:1
T:Egan's Polka
M:2/4
L:1/8
K:G
BD ED | BD ED | G2 A>B | AG ED |
BD ED | BD ED | G2 A>B | AG G2 :|
Bd BA | AG ED | G2 A>B | AG ED |
Bd BA | AG ED | G2 A>B | AG G2 :|

Practice playing in C on the G row; in G on the G row; in G on the D row; in D on the G row; in D on the D row; and in A on the D row. Use only the notes from each row. Compare the sound. Focus in particular on the differences when playing in G and D.

With that knowledge, experiment with playing the melody using both rows. There are many different possibilities.
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2019, 02:43:56 AM »

Hi Warren,

Row crossing is nice when you want to play smoothly over drawn-out chords. For bouncy tunes like most traditional dance music, I think playing up and down the row is generally preferable. But even then there are times when you may need to, or choose to, cross to the other row.

Some specific cases where I would cross rows even when playing bouncy tunes in major keys:

When playing in G:
  • to reach the low E, obviously
  • to play a C# in tunes that use it (often at the end of an A part)
  • to play a G or B over an E Minor chord
  • to play a G or B over an A Major chord
  • to play a right-hand C chord (or to harmonize an E with a G on a C chord)

When playing in D:
  • to play a C natural in tunes that use it (aka D Mixolydian)
  • to play a G or B over a G chord
  • to play an A or F# over an A Major chord
  • to play a right-hand G chord or fragment
  • to play a right-hand A chord or fragment

And finally, in either key but especially frequently in G, it can be nice to do a trill. Usually you can just use the next button above on the same row for this kind of ornament, but in music that has a more classical/baroque feel to it, like some of the tunes in Playford, I think trilling on the note right above sounds nice. For example, trill between the G on the G row and the A on the D row, resolving to G at the end of the tune.

So there are lots of different techniques that involve crossing the rows, even while one's playing style remains primarily "on the row".
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Jesse Smith

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2019, 02:50:16 AM »

By the way, I personally find some of Mally's chord choices a bit questionable, so if something sounds better or is easier to play another way, feel free to experiment.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2019, 09:06:32 AM »

By the way, I personally find some of Mally's chord choices a bit questionable, so if something sounds better or is easier to play another way, feel free to experiment.

Have to agree with that.

By the way, Jesse, you didn't mention to get a C natural when playing in Em, or to get an accidental C# over an A major chord, in tunes like Ring O'Bells. Then there's playing in other modes...

I switch between the rows a lot, even when playing in an up and down the row style (i.e., usually) when it's seems the best way to play a tune.
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Theo

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2019, 09:54:31 AM »

Q Why did the player cross the rows?

A to get to the other chords.

Harr Harr!
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2019, 10:28:00 AM »

Q Why did the player cross the rows?

A to get to the other chords.

Harr Harr!

Glad someone gave the expected answer Theo!  ;)
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2019, 11:27:17 AM »

But meanwhile, for playing the tunes in a setting such as a session or dance, where I want to sound my best and not go wrong, I'd probably make the following choices in your examples:
1. Egan's Polka Bar 3 - I'd play the F# semiquaver on the pull. I find easier to play it neatly and less risk of something going wrong.
2. Salmon Tails Bar 2 - whole bar on the push, so last semiquaver (A) on the D row.
3. Salmon Tails Bar 3 - second beat (A BA) all on the pull. Allows me to play the Pah (D chord) slightly longer so it sounds under both the B and the start of the A, which I like.
4. Salmon Tails High F-sharps - there are three, and I play them all on the pull on the G row. It's nice to play a separate chord under each of the six quavers in bars 15 and 16 (bass and chord button together): G D Em Bm C D (G) - so that choice determines which fingering I use for the F-sharps.

How does that compare with the fingerings that you prefer?

Thanks John, really helpful! I first learned the tunes on the row (apart from the low E), but have now moved to the following:

1. The F# on the pull on the D row in bar 3 of Egan's Polka (it seems rather easier than the double bellows reversal required otherwise when mainly playing on the row).
2. Bar 2 of Salmon Tails all on the push, with the quaver on the D row, as you do.
3. Second half of bar 3 of Salmon Tails (ABA) all on the pull too, with the first quaver on the D row.
4. I play all the high F#s on the pull (G row), simply because (so far) getting across the to D row to avoid the double bellows reversal on the one which is a quaver is more effort than it seems worth.

So it looks like we're doing the same on the treble end (yay! I'm not just doing something random), though so far I'm sticking to Mally's bass suggests (e.g. in Salmon Tails G and D for most of it, C in bars 2, 6 and 10 of the B part).
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2019, 11:39:08 AM »

Hi Warren,

Row crossing is nice when you want to play smoothly over drawn-out chords. For bouncy tunes like most traditional dance music, I think playing up and down the row is generally preferable. But even then there are times when you may need to, or choose to, cross to the other row.

Some specific cases where I would cross rows even when playing bouncy tunes in major keys:

When playing in G:
  • to reach the low E, obviously
  • to play a C# in tunes that use it (often at the end of an A part)
  • to play a G or B over an E Minor chord
  • to play a G or B over an A Major chord
  • to play a right-hand C chord (or to harmonize an E with a G on a C chord)

When playing in D:
  • to play a C natural in tunes that use it (aka D Mixolydian)
  • to play a G or B over a G chord
  • to play an A or F# over an A Major chord
  • to play a right-hand G chord or fragment
  • to play a right-hand A chord or fragment

And finally, in either key but especially frequently in G, it can be nice to do a trill. Usually you can just use the next button above on the same row for this kind of ornament, but in music that has a more classical/baroque feel to it, like some of the tunes in Playford, I think trilling on the note right above sounds nice. For example, trill between the G on the G row and the A on the D row, resolving to G at the end of the tune.

So there are lots of different techniques that involve crossing the rows, even while one's playing style remains primarily "on the row".

Very helpful Jesse, thank you. I have been crossing rows for the necessary low E, to get those accidentals (e.g. on tunes like Lillibulero and Tars of the Victory) and am starting to for Em tunes to get any kind of suitable bass accompaniment. Still early days on doing it for better bass harmony though.
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2019, 11:41:06 AM »

By the way, I personally find some of Mally's chord choices a bit questionable, so if something sounds better or is easier to play another way, feel free to experiment.

Oh no! I find it very helpful when suitable basses are indicated, so that's useful to know. I can tell when something sounds right, but I'm still in the early stages of learning how to predict what basses match with what on the treble side.
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2019, 11:50:39 AM »

Indeed some tunes eg m0rpeth rant are easier to  play using both rows.   

That's a lovely tune, will have to have a go at learning it.
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2019, 12:55:58 PM »

but in music that has a more classical/baroque feel to it, like some of the tunes in Playford, I think trilling on the note right above sounds nice. For example, trill between the G on the G row and the A on the D row, resolving to G at the end of the tune.

I'm still learning terms, never mind techniques Jesse. By trilling do you mean a quick pulse on another note then continuing to play the original?
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Howard Jones

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2019, 01:54:59 PM »

Whilst it is natural to think in terms of the "D row" and the "G row", in fact we have an instrument where most of the notes are duplicated and you have a choice of which direction to play them in.  You should aim for every note to be a considered choice made for a deliberate reason.  Working out the best way to play a tune can be a lengthy process involving a lot of trial and error.

In practice, of course, we all have our own preferred ways of playing which we tend to adopt when playing a tune for the first time, so (for me anyway) this process tends to start with a basic approach and then varying it, rather than building up from zero.  Nevertheless it certainly pays to think about why you are playing each phrase of a tune that particular way and trying out alternatives to see if they might be better.

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2019, 02:02:58 PM »

Whilst it is natural to think in terms of the "D row" and the "G row", in fact we have an instrument where most of the notes are duplicated and you have a choice of which direction to play them in.  You should aim for every note to be a considered choice made for a deliberate reason.  Working out the best way to play a tune can be a lengthy process involving a lot of trial and error.

In practice, of course, we all have our own preferred ways of playing which we tend to adopt when playing a tune for the first time, so (for me anyway) this process tends to start with a basic approach and then varying it, rather than building up from zero.  Nevertheless it certainly pays to think about why you are playing each phrase of a tune that particular way and trying out alternatives to see if they might be better.

Excellent post, Howard. I agree with everything you say.

"In practice, of course, we all have our own preferred ways of playing which we tend to adopt when playing a tune for the first time, so (for me anyway) this process tends to start with a basic approach and then varying it, rather than building up from zero."
This bit is especially good and describes exactly my approach too.
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Why did the (DG) melodeon player cross the rows?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2019, 02:03:42 PM »

Working out the best way to play a tune can be a lengthy process involving a lot of trial and error.

This is something I'm discovering. It's a not as simple as just playing up and down the row by ear and fitting the bass to it as best you can, as I started doing. It's often said that you should work out the bass first, which of course makes some sense, assuming you can work out which bass to use, which when you are learning is not always obvious.
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