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Author Topic: Playing in front of others...  (Read 11112 times)

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The Oul' Boy

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2019, 12:34:10 PM »

Pretty fast here too, with nice melodeon (including bass!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVFD2iwObqA
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2019, 04:29:09 PM »

The rapper itslf was originally a 2 handled scraper used in grooming pit ponies- it was used to scrape sweat/coal dust off the animal's back
Nope.  Although this old chestnut is oft repeated, I don't believe there is a shred of evidence for it.
I'm not convinced either. I worked underground for many years in the collieries of South Yorkshire and South Wales.

There was a tool known as a 'rapper' which was basically a length of flexible steel (perhaps a bit shorter than present-day rapper swords) which was used by haulage men in charge of the underground rope-driven transport system for moving men, coal and materials around the mine roadways. Above the haulage roadway there would be a pair of bare steel wires running the length of the haulage way. These wires carried a low-voltage electric current (about 12v if I remember correctly. When shorted out by placing the rapper across the two wires, a bell would ring in the engine-house which could be over a mile away. There was a system of bell codes signalled to the engine-man to start, stop or reverse the stationary winding engine which would then draw the wagons along the roadway.

The act of signalling in this way was known as 'rapping off' the required number of bell rings to the engine man. "All those girders loaded, Bill?" "Yep!" "Right-oh, rap 'er away then". (two raps to go inbye, three raps to go outbye, one rap to stop at any time. If men were being transported, the signal would be eight raps first of all).

The rapper tool itself could also be a custom-made T-piece consisting of a cross-piece of steel blade mounted on a wooden handle. This made it easier for the haulage man riding on the wagons to signal while in motion to the engine-man to stop the haulage if necessary (i.e. if something was amiss). But often the rapper tool could just as well be a bit of old hacksaw blade, or a pen-knife blade.

A similar useage of the term 'to rap' would be employed at the mine shaft pit bottom, but normally this would be done by pressing a bell push which would cause a bell to ring in the winding engine-house at the surface and signal the engine-man to raise or lower the shaft cage. It was still known as 'rapping off' though, and immortalised in the Geordie song "Rap 'er te bank, me canny lad". In the really old days, shaft signalling was sometimes done by rapping (beating) a suspended steel sheet with a hammer, a bit like sounding a gong, and hoping the engine-man on the pit top would hear the signals correctly.  :o

Anyway - that's what I think a rapper is/was.
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2019, 05:09:32 PM »

All sorts of good stuff but too long to edit on my phone
Hence the song Rap her t'bank
https://youtu.be/lKlUQCb5xFw

Graham Spencer

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2019, 06:11:12 PM »

The rapper itslf was originally a 2 handled scraper used in grooming pit ponies- it was used to scrape sweat/coal dust off the animal's back
Nope.  Although this old chestnut is oft repeated, I don't believe there is a shred of evidence for it.
I'm not convinced either. I worked underground for many years in the collieries of South Yorkshire and South Wales.

There was a tool known as a 'rapper' which was basically a length of flexible steel (perhaps a bit shorter than present-day rapper swords) which was used by haulage men in charge of the underground rope-driven transport system for moving men, coal and materials around the mine roadways. Above the haulage roadway there would be a pair of bare steel wires running the length of the haulage way. These wires carried a low-voltage electric current (about 12v if I remember correctly. When shorted out by placing the rapper across the two wires, a bell would ring in the engine-house which could be over a mile away. There was a system of bell codes signalled to the engine-man to start, stop or reverse the stationary winding engine which would then draw the wagons along the roadway.

The act of signalling in this way was known as 'rapping off' the required number of bell rings to the engine man. "All those girders loaded, Bill?" "Yep!" "Right-oh, rap 'er away then". (two raps to go inbye, three raps to go outbye, one rap to stop at any time. If men were being transported, the signal would be eight raps first of all).

The rapper tool itself could also be a custom-made T-piece consisting of a cross-piece of steel blade mounted on a wooden handle. This made it easier for the haulage man riding on the wagons to signal while in motion to the engine-man to stop the haulage if necessary (i.e. if something was amiss). But often the rapper tool could just as well be a bit of old hacksaw blade, or a pen-knife blade.

A similar useage of the term 'to rap' would be employed at the mine shaft pit bottom, but normally this would be done by pressing a bell push which would cause a bell to ring in the winding engine-house at the surface and signal the engine-man to raise or lower the shaft cage. It was still known as 'rapping off' though, and immortalised in the Geordie song "Rap 'er te bank, me canny lad". In the really old days, shaft signalling was sometimes done by rapping (beating) a suspended steel sheet with a hammer, a bit like sounding a gong, and hoping the engine-man on the pit top would hear the signals correctly.  :o

Anyway - that's what I think a rapper is/was.

That's the best explanation I've ever come across, Steve, and makes perfect sense. I've never subscribed to either of the pony cleaner/drawknife theories, but until now hadn't found a credible derivation.

Graham
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2019, 06:37:43 PM »

Along side Steve's explanation, I remember Roy Dommett commenting on it during one of his Morris instructionals.
He made the point that a rapper sword could not be made before spring steel had been manufactured.
That knowledge was brought over from Germany by the forge masters who set up forges and steel works to make spring steel.
Roy noted that there then seemed to be sword sides formed on those areas. The implication being the sword traditions were brought over by the forge masters.
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2019, 06:38:17 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=8_JVb97s0EY&feature=emb_logo
Not that fast but very solid.

Pretty fast here too, with nice melodeon (including bass!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVFD2iwObqA

The beat of the steps here are what I would describe as 140 and 145 respectively. Those were the tempos I achieved when asked to play for a side, and, that was about as fast as I could play at the time, and I'm not sure that's changed. Doing so for a whole rapper dance was quite exhausting, and, as I say, this side did still ask if they could get it a little faster. By comparison, the preferred beat of the steps of my border side I'd describe by comparison as being 70.

So I mean idk, I would describe keeping up with both those videos as being challenging.
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2019, 06:55:45 PM »

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Peadar

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2019, 07:21:50 PM »

Ma 'se breug bhuam bé breug thugam.....If it is a lie from me it was a lie to me.

Either way the pony scraper was the only narrative of what a rapper was that I ever heard in Newcastle.  and I have never heard of rapper as a locally traditional dance outside of Durham/Northumberland.

Temperable " Huntsman' " steel has been around since the 1780's (maybe earlier) and was the foundation (correct me if I'm wrong Steve) of the Sheffield steel ( i.e. knife steel)  industry. Mass produced mild steel, which isn't temperable only came on the scene with the invention of the Bessemer furnace in the 1870's.













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Graham Spencer

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2019, 07:56:19 PM »

Either way the pony scraper was the only narrative of what a rapper was that I ever heard in Newcastle.  and I have never heard of rapper as a locally traditional dance outside of Durham/Northumberland.

I don't doubt that, and it was certainly a commonly held theory when I was doing rapper when I was younger and fitter in the late 60s/early 70s;  I was never entirely convinced by it, though, even then. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong, but I do find Steve's reasoning more plausible. And I think you're quite correct that it's (as far as current research shows!) unique to the North-East.

Graham
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Winston Smith

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2019, 09:44:33 PM »

"Although rappers do bear some resemblance to things like this: https://www.tattiniriding.com/en-us/product/sweat-scraper-two-handles-stainless-steel-1779?fr=p-1810/url"

That two handled sweat scraper strikes me as having rather more than "some resemblance". Could it not be argued that this implement could have also been used to short the wires as in Steve's explanation? After all, he does describe other tools etc being used to do the same job, possibly because they were just "at hand". A custom made T piece or hacksaw blade would not normally be in the hands of a pony driver, just as the tool shown would only be in the hands of such a man. Indeed, the very existence of a "custom made T piece" would lend credence to this theory! Even if there were no pit-ponies, using the scraper this way could just be a leftover tradition for older pitmen.
Having had a lifetime of using handtools, I could give many instances of using the wrong tool simply because it was at hand and would function OK there and then. I believe this could be the answer to this conundrum.
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Andrew Kennedy

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2019, 10:10:59 PM »

Brass was cheap when steel was expensive. It becomes brittle when worked, as by repeated flexing, but could be replaced equally cheaply. Carlisle Sword once danced in a pub, after which the landlord produced a set of brass-bladed rappers and said 'I always wondered what these were.' He asked for them to be danced into a nut which he could display, but one broke.

Records suggest that old-time teams were much more conservative about bending their rappers than is the case today, which is not surprising bearing in mind the variety of sources they found for their blades, often repurposing second-hand metal.

Horse scrapers were also made out of brass. Designs varied (and still do) but some are indistinguishable from fixed-handle rappers.

'Rapper' or 'raper' is an old dialect word for a sword (and specifically an edged sword rather than the rapier with which it is sometimes confused); I know of examples in records from Huddersfield, Perth, and Elgin using the word in this sense, which is not to say that it didn't have other meanings as well.

Tempo: I've been in dances between the 140s and pushing 200. The latter was an error by a nervous musician on the Sidmouth Arena, and the stepping quality was not the best we had ever done.

Make of these fragments what you will.
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2019, 11:18:58 PM »

The rapper itslf was originally a 2 handled scraper used in grooming pit ponies- it was used to scrape sweat/coal dust off the animal's back

Nope.  Although this old chestnut is oft repeated, I don't believe there is a shred of evidence for it.

It's also not exclusively a mining thing - what I've heard from Paul Davenport (who also refuted the pit-pony-scraper myth) is that all sorts of workplaces in the NE used to have rapper teams, but the practice carried on in the coalmines long after the others had stopped.
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2019, 10:34:56 AM »

Do you guys have a pre-show routine like scales practice, "loosen-up"-tunes or something?

I will generally start to feel nerves one hour pre-show, and down a couple beers (3 tops). Then go in and just try to have fun.
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Chris Ryall

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2019, 11:16:39 AM »

I do practice scales, that and the related chords are a sound basis for impro.  My performances are generally in the Belvedere session in Liverpool, which has very excellent real ales  :|glug

Warming up?  Yes to that too. It is a mixed session and I'd tend to start with songs as my turn comes round.    In school half terms we often get Rivington's superb clog dancer Ruth Bibby and it has been an absolute pleasure to play for her.  NW English clog style is .. relaxed.  "Straight" waltzes  don't work for it and the line is perforce improvised.

Actually I've discovered that the fewer notes I put in the better it goes!
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2019, 11:24:59 AM »

It's also not exclusively a mining thing  …

The origin of sword dance is eclipsed by time but the more I've watched it, the more I've come to perceive it as a linked ring dance form. The swords could easily be scarves, or wooden batons, as in some of the NE coast traditions. That's  also to say that the dance part is more important that the 'lock' climax.

There are linked ring dance styles throughout Europe, including some of the Swedish Islands, "chorus" is from the Greek for a ring dance according to Lloyd.  "Sword" prevalence here seems to map the Danelaw areas?  Rapper clearly went … off at a tangent at some stage in history  :o
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2019, 01:46:57 PM »

"Rapper clearly went … off at a tangent at some stage in history"

Now, that, I like! Following the non-conformist NE traditions nicely.
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Peadar

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2019, 11:30:05 PM »

The rapper itslf was originally a 2 handled scraper used in grooming pit ponies- it was used to scrape sweat/coal dust off the animal's back

Nope.  Although this old chestnut is oft repeated, I don't believe there is a shred of evidence for it.

It's also not exclusively a mining thing - what I've heard from Paul Davenport (who also refuted the pit-pony-scraper myth) is that all sorts of workplaces in the NE used to have rapper teams, but the practice carried on in the coalmines long after the others had stopped.


Anahata- Denial is one thing, refutation demands a plausible alternative explanation. What do you suggest? The existence of "workplace" rapper teams does not contradict the idea that the rapper was originally a horse driver's sweat scraper

Helena : "This old chestnut" is the folklore of the part of England that rapper comes from.

The tradition that rapper comes from the mining community and that rappers were originally sweat scrapers used for grooming pit horses is one I find entirely plausible. 
Nicholas Wood's "A Practical Treatise on Rail-roads and Inland Communication in General...", 1st Edition, 1826, was the first definitive text book on railway engineering- in it Wood explored the mechanics and economics of the railroads which had developed as an ancilliary to and essential component of the Tyneside coal mining and exporting industry. Large numbers of Horses were employed drawing wagons on Colliery wagonways, typically a couple of miles long and linking individual pit heads with coal staithes on the Tyne. Wood calculated that a typical horse would travel at an average of 2 miles per hour over a ten hour day, hauling a payloadof perhaps 5 tons.
To cut the chase, this adds up  to significant concentrations of horses, men annd sweat scrapers at colliery stables - each horse with an individual driver and grooming kit.

I rest my case.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 11:45:16 PM by Peadar »
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2019, 12:21:53 AM »

To answer the actual OP. I think, give or take a fortnight, I have been learning the box for about the same length of time as the Oul' Boy.
My first attempt to play in public was at the begining of October at the local (Skye) accordion and fiddle club, which organises an evening event one a month through the winter.  The club not only boasts some superb young players but also is very welcoming to players of any age and level of ability. I have found it a very safe and encouraging place to play and the act of playing to the audience makes it easier for me to just sit and enjoy listening to all the other far more accomplished musicians.

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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2019, 12:36:31 AM »

George Wallace from North Shields, who used to dance with High Spen, undertook a good deal of painstaking research about rapper dancing, and published a booklet with Gateshead Libraries "Fit to jump ower the moon....".  In a short chapter about the swords he covers most of the possible explanations for the derivation of the name rapper set out above, and some others too (but not the suggestions made by Steve Freereeder - which does sound plausible). 

In relation to scrapers for pit ponies George says;
"It seems that the early rapper sword was of a similar make and appearance to the early horse scrapers.  But the name rapper has not been found applied to the tool.  However the name 'rubber' is commonly used for cleaning horse, and has been used specifically for a strigil or sweat scraper.  It was also used as an alternative name, by the Swalwell dancers for the rapper sword itself"

So, it seems George concurs with others that any similarities between horse/pony scrapers and rappers for sword dancing are coincidental, and he makes the point that swivels handles have not been found in equine scrapers. George mentions brass horse scrapers for race horses - so the "sword" broken by Carlisle sword may well have been a (race)horse scraper.

George describes how "hoop iron" was used by sword dancers (and for scraping ponies) well before spring steel became available, and before Sharp described dancers swords "as flexible as a harlequin's wand"!

No doubt George's book will be in Gateshead libraries for those who wish to read/research more.

The old black and white films I've seen of old teams suggest they danced at more leisurely paces than some "modern" teams and their stepping may well not have been as precise as it has since the Kingsmen and others took up the dance. 

For aspiring rapper musicians, there are some very capable "traditional" rapper musicians recorded on one of the series of Morris Ring CDs (LMM CD13) with, in my opinion, some good traditional tunes. Most are playing around 140-150 bpm.

I think that relatively easy tunes to play at a good pace for dancing include Hexham Races (for "trotting"/moving figures) and New Rigged Ship, which has a strong beat for predominantly "stepping" figures.  Both have readily identifiable beginnings and endings to each "A" and "B" part, which I think help the dancers with phrasing, and both are easy to "find your place" if you lose your step mid figure/phrase.

George Wallace was an excellent dancer too, and I was lucky enough to dance with him - in this clip at the Gateshead Garden Festival.  George was dancing at No. 4 and Mike Douglas was playing the melodeon (at a fair lick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-vKZjHXbPI
 

 


 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 12:38:37 AM by Stotty »
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Re: Playing in front of others...
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2019, 08:39:55 AM »

George Wallace from North Shields, ..... "Fit to jump ower the moon....".  In a short chapter about the swords he covers most of the possible explanations for the derivation of the name rapper set out above, and some others too. ........

In relation to scrapers for pit ponies George says;
"It seems that the early rapper sword was of a similar make and appearance to the early horse scrapers.  But the name rapper has not been found applied to the tool.  However the name 'rubber' is commonly used for cleaning horse, and has been used specifically for a strigil or sweat scraper.  It was also used as an alternative name, by the Swalwell dancers for the rapper sword itself"

So, it seems George concurs with others that any similarities between horse/pony scrapers and rappers for sword dancing are coincidental, and he makes the point that swivels handles have not been found in equine scrapers. George mentions brass horse scrapers for race horses - so the "sword" broken by Carlisle sword may well have been a (race)horse scraper.

George describes how "hoop iron" was used by sword dancers (and for scraping ponies) well before spring steel became available, and before Sharp described dancers swords "as flexible as a harlequin's wand"!

No doubt George's book will be in Gateshead libraries for those who wish to read/research more.

The old black and white films I've seen of old teams suggest they danced at more leisurely paces than some "modern" teams and their stepping may well not have been as precise as it has since the Kingsmen and others took up the dance. 
 

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.......the similarity between horse scraper and rubber/rapper suggests to me the adoption of the scraper as a dance "sword". No surprise that there was never a swivel handle on a horse scraper -this would detract from its function, allowing the swivel end to twist out of control of the groom. Bad idea.

On the other hand, any pit big enough to be equipped with it's own waggonway also had a blacksmiths shop - we aren't talking a village farrier here, but a fully equipped by the standards of the time engineering workshop. Making and repairing swivels which were part and parcel of  plant and equipment was a routine job.

All it takes is for a few boys to have started working up a dance routine using scrapers or hoop iron as swords...and someone has a bright idea about a swivel handle... Plausible? I think so.

(Note: In 1815 Geordie Stephenson was foreman blacksmith at Killingworth Colliery - about 3 miles North of Byker. and built his first locomotive, under the eye of Nicholas Wood in the colliery blacksmith's shop -which gives some indication of the skill sets available in those places).
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