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Author Topic: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout  (Read 1846 times)

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Gena Crisman

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2019, 06:55:24 AM »

I'd guess there is not a single person here who either agrees or cares.

Haha, you know I both agree and care - you are right, and I stand corrected.

Really, I'm just trying to find words to describe my usual pragmatic approach. If I had a tune, or set of tunes, that moved from G major to G minor, then I would:
a) Use a thirds stop/coupler so that my associated chords did not have their thirds, so for example, instead of playing G B D, my G chord would be composed only of G and D. This allows the chord played to avoid clashing for both G major and G minor.
b) Expect to use accidental buttons or a 3rd row (eg a D/G/Acc style layout) to find the Bb, F, and Eb melody notes I would be looking for G minor, and really not be play up/down the rows really any more.

Multi row (eg D/G) instruments already have many of the reversals that would typically be found on an organetto's half row, and so usually many of any additional buttons on a 3rd or half row are given over to notes found outside of those key signatures. The purpose of our row where many reversals are found though, is not strictly reversals however, they just happen to be there, unlike with a typical organetto. When one change both rows to minor, I believe a good number of little things don't really work quite the same any more. I imagine some of the techniques of playing a 2 row vs an Organetto are probably quite a bit different - changing our major rows over to minor rows leads to breaking a lot of the knowledge and methods we've build up, which would make me at the very least, resistant to the idea. Perhaps, however, it the approach makes a lot of sense for your existing skill base, thought, but unfortunately I don't think I can offer any actual tangible assistance in terms of a layout file.

I should really stop posting in a hurry/as a distraction.
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2019, 09:21:08 PM »

I've been working on my new accordion the  roland fr 18 , if you are familiar with this instrument ypu know that have 12 different tablature and by default this instrument is in the key of G, i am still learning the functions and capabilities and so on but i still don't get why is so difficult to play songs in G m,either im not understanding the technique of the diatonic accordion or im just plain stupid....example...I'm playing a simple Italian style waltz in G Major and D Major  so far so good ..then few other parts of the song's are in Gm and D major, so on the bass side all i do is press.both G and G chords so that my arranger can play the chords ....so so far so good ...but now i need to search the G minor chord on the bass which is the complete opposite place from where the G major chord is ..
But no biggie....but now on the treble side im looking for a D sharp ok E flat but  i  can't find it no where near the area of.notes that im using ( first outside row mid section and going up)then finally i found  it all the way at the bottom of the keyboard, is this even normal? Is impossible for me to jump from the mid section of  the keyboard all the way down  with out making mistakes...os this how the diatonic accordion works  ? One note here and the next one 2 miles away????? Im sorry i  just frustrated



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playandteach

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2019, 10:18:25 PM »

It's how 2 row instruments work. I've got a 2+2. If you look at my photo icon you'll see  buttons sitting on a 3rd mini row, right in the middle. This is a modern compromise, and it means that you can use the end buttons for other notes too. Other players here manage to jump just fine but my melodeon feels like my hands are on a piano (I also use my thumb to play), so having the Eb near the E makes more sense to me.
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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2019, 10:26:34 PM »


But no biggie....but now on the treble side im looking for a D sharp ok E flat but  i  can't find it no where near the area of.notes that im using ( first outside row mid section and going up)then finally i found  it all the way at the bottom of the keyboard, is this even normal? Is impossible for me to jump from the mid section of  the keyboard all the way down  with out making mistakes...os this how the diatonic accordion works  ? One note here and the next one 2 miles away????? Im sorry i  just frustrated

If you want all the notes in convenient places then you should really consider a chromatic button accordion.  No long stretches there, even octaves are only 5 buttons apart. 
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2019, 11:39:46 AM »

i  can't find it no where near the area of.notes that im using ( first outside row mid section and going up)then finally i found  it all the way at the bottom of the keyboard, is this even normal?

As you have discovered, with that kind of layout, with accidentals put down at one end of the keyboard or the other, you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Neither the peg or the hole is wrong - they're just not right for one another.

I have to ask though, exactly what layout are you using for your FR-18? I don't own one myself but, like, do you have any way to be clearer about the layout situation? I went online to roland's website, and grabbed their freely available layout software: http://eg.roland.com/support/by_product/fr-18_diatonic

I loaded it up, and just looked at the default layout that it presented to me:


link in case too small

To my eye, this is a G/C/Acc layout, and vaguely similar to this layout melnet home page (there are some smaller differences though):

http://forum.melodeon.net/files/site/Schema_DrieRijer_Corgeron_Heim.pdf

This is not the kind of layout you seem to be describing as being present on your instrument, as it does not put accidentals at the 'top' or 'bottom' of the keyboard, as I would describe them. While it suggests calling this layout 'G', I would suggest considering it as 'C' - the middle row, rather then the outside row. In the layout present in the image above, of the roland software, to play in eg C minor, instead of C major (the middle row) you will find the appropriate key to play just adjacent to it, on inner most/accidental row, and in the matching direction of the note you are replacing (E->Eb, A->Ab, B->Bb). I assume this is the kind of layout you would look at and think 'ah, makes sense', perhaps? The same does not seem true of G & G minor, though, but, you can fix that with transposition perhaps.

So, I have to ask, how is your instrument set up? If your instrument is configured in some other way, eg, G/C/F, then that may be a large factor in the problems you're having.
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Québécois

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2019, 02:33:06 PM »

Gena: the FR-18 comes with 12 tablatures,  the one you show in your post is number 1. If you select a number in the drop list you will see all the included configurations. Also, the key can be changed so from tablature 1 you can set the key to anything else than G, for example A/D with accidentals.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 02:40:32 PM by Québécois »
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2019, 03:12:29 PM »

So they do! It seems changing the selected 'key' does not alter the scale, though - I suspect that's something for the instrument. Regardless of this, it does let me look at the default tablatures. Quite a lot of the layouts seem to be G/C/Acc based (eg 1-3), some of them sure are weird (looking at tablature 5). There's a also a B/C layout, a G/C/F layout, an (I believe) Organetto style layout.

One thing I'm noting though is that there seems to be no way to configure a chord button to play the 1st and 5th only, a thirdless/power chord, which would be very much the bread and butter of any more unusual playing I would think to do on my instrument.

edit - aha, apparently you can push all of the bass registers to turn thirds on/off (search drop third in the manual).

So, is it easy to change to a different tablature while playing? One suspects that this software could be used to make on-the-row minor playing relatively possible, depending on one's playing style.

edit - So yeah I'd probably look at using tab 1 or 2 with thirdless chords to play in major/minor of the same key, or, I'd use the tab creator to set up a G minor/C minor tablature and replace one of the ones I don't use with that.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 03:22:04 PM by Gena Crisman »
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Howard Jones

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2019, 07:54:14 PM »

On a D/G instrument you have a scale of G (1 sharp) and a scale of D (2 sharps).  If you want other notes outside these diatonic scales then they have to be shoe-horned in somewhere else, the D#/Eb can't go next to the D or E as these notes are not part of the G or D scale, so they either go on the end of the rows or on a third 'accidental' row.  This means they can be difficult to reach.

It is easy to switch from G major to E minor because their scales contain the same notes.  What you are trying to do when you go from G major to G minor is go from playing in 1 sharp to playing in 2 flats.  The basic diatonic instrument simply doesn't have all the notes to do both.  You need additional notes on an accidental row to do this, and you may need more minor bass chords to go with them  With an electronic instrument you can probably find a set-up to do this, or program one yourself.

Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2019, 12:50:30 PM »

Many posts here about my problem, after reading all your posts is clear now that I am the only one with issue ,as you can see from my posts i am NOT a diatonic accordion player, this kast few days ive bis searching for  instructional videos and books so that i can learn the technique of this instrument, by default i play the organetto one and half row D ...so i assumed that once i get a programmable accordion like the roland would it been easy to play songs that have both major and minor chords...i guess i was wrong was i....
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2019, 12:53:06 PM »

Many posts here about my problem, after reading all your posts is clear now that I am the only one with issue ,as you can see from my posts i am NOT a diatonic accordion player, this past few days i have  been searching for  instructional videos and books so that i can learn the technique of this instrument, by default i play the organetto one and half row D ...so i assumed that once i get a programmable accordion like the roland would it been easy to play songs that have both major and minor chords...i guess i was wrong was i....
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playandteach

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2019, 12:59:09 PM »

I don't understand your issue. Major keys have 3 minor chords. Minor keys have 3 major chords (not always true).
On the home key of D, you can play B minor chord, A minor (if you need to)and E minor on a standard 8 bass instrument. You don't have F# minor but that is very easily replaced with A major as they have many of the same notes (Amin6 is the same chord as F#m7).
Perhaps you expected to play in many more keys and still have the useful minor chords, but there are of course limitations. You won't have much luck in F minor for example - too many notes missing.
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2019, 02:39:05 PM »

No it's not my issue ,many songs out there specially old traditional ones have major and minor chords ....example
O sole mio songs starts i major and then the second part or verse is in minor so if is played in the key of G than the verse is G  to Cm chord and then back to G mj ....so i have to have one key don't matter which one but with option to play major   and minors and maybe some 7ths in both bass and treble, keep in mind that i have a arranger connected via midi for the bass
Thank you

.
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Gena Crisman

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2019, 03:43:21 PM »

specially old traditional ones have major and minor chords ....example
O sole mio songs starts i major and then the second part or verse is in minor so if is played in the key of G than the verse is G  to Cm chord and then back to G mj

(nb, these links are provided as an example of roughly what Tony's talking about, I do not expect them to be optimal examples of the tune in question, just a 'it would be something like this')
So, for reference, here are some (very suspect) guitar tabs for O sole mio in G:
https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/luciano-pavarotti/o-sole-mio-chords-1495304

And here's a musescore of it, also in G, note the line starting bar 31, the inclusion of the Eb in bar 35 & 36 that gives the song a lovely bit of flavour:
https://musescore.com/user/286836/scores/1964861

Basically, it is presented here in G major, but brings in the Cm chord and an Eb melody note to add some flavour in the chorus. Cm and Eb are not diatonic with G major/One sharp. This is why playing them does not come quite so naturally to a diatonic button accordion. Add onto this the complication of Tony being an existing performer, who has built many solutions to problems already, and has an existing workflow.

However, I believe that is quite playable. The issue is, I think, more one of perspective: as Tony says, he is not a diatonic button accordion player.

If it were me, I could use tablature 1 (as shown in my post here),  I would play on the outside row and probably turn off the thirds in the FR18's chords via the drop third functionality. This would make the C major chord a C5 chord, so just C + G, which would let me play either an E or a Eb over it on the melody side. Or as the Fr18 presents a 12 bass G/C/Acc in this mode, I actually could leave the thirds active, so playing the full chords, but for this part where I look for a Cm chord, use the C base combined with the Eb major chord button to play Cm7 ( Eb major being composed of Eb + G + Bb. Adding the C bass to this forms C + Eb + G + Bb, aka Cm7).

However, I do not know how that approach would work with Tony's midi bass situation.

The combining of a seemingly unconnected bass button and chord button, or, playing chords that do not contain thirds, are two very powerful and important techniques, and a very large component for playing more complicated music such as this example on diatonic button accordions, simply because of their more restricted palettes.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 03:52:55 PM by Gena Crisman »
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playandteach

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2019, 05:44:48 PM »

Tony
Thanks for the example of a problem - some of my misunderstanding was just a language thing about chords. Now I do understand.
I think the solution in most cases is to find the best fit between what you have in the left hand, and adding the accidentals in the right hand.
So if you are short of a B major chord and have a set up that lets you remove the 3rds, then you can play the D# with the right hand - or use the same right hand button to play the Eb of a C minor chord. As you say a lot of those tunes have key changes for colour and missing them out loses all the character. Perhaps if you want to play those sorts of tunes a lot, then 8 basses may not be enough.
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2019, 03:27:22 AM »

Well as Gena mentioned i am working on the tablature one of the roland fr 18 and i am trying to change few things around but i can't get it 100 percent, i am currently working on the outside and middle row of the treble side but is not coming out correctly, i gain a note but im losing another....so my next step is to use the inner row and create accidental notes?? Is that how is called??
Basically what i was trying to do is to have all my needed treble notes in a closed group .....i don't know if i make much sense but again i am  learning as i go....
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playandteach

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2019, 11:11:55 AM »

Well as Gena mentioned i am working on the tablature one of the roland fr 18 and i am trying to change few things around but i can't get it 100 percent, i am currently working on the outside and middle row of the treble side but is not coming out correctly, i gain a note but im losing another....so my next step is to use the inner row and create accidental notes?? Is that how is called??
Basically what i was trying to do is to have all my needed treble notes in a closed group .....i don't know if i make much sense but again i am  learning as i go....
That all makes sense. I like the dutch reversals - you don't lose the note on the middle row note, as it is there on the outside, and yes the accidentals can be personal preference - although as you do, I like them in an ergonomic place that also makes sense to their neighbour notes, so a G# near the A note. Good luck.
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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2019, 12:24:33 PM »

...i gain a note but im losing another....

If you play a conventional melodeon that is a familiar experience. You trade weight for accidentals and reversals. You can't have everything.
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Tony Cipriano

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2019, 01:08:49 AM »

A question to the experienced diatonic accordionist
How would you play a song that have both major and minor chords? In the same key?what's your solution?
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playandteach

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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2019, 12:59:52 PM »

A question to the experienced diatonic accordionist
How would you play a song that have both major and minor chords? In the same key?what's your solution?
In an attempt to be helpful here, (sorry if I'm wrong) I think OP means, how do you play a song that changes key in at some point? Having answered some previous questions, I'm fairly sure that Tony is asking what we do when we have a chord that is outside of our key - for example Come Back to Sorrento.
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Re: Diatonic accordion minor scale layout
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2019, 01:01:39 PM »

A question to the experienced diatonic accordionist
How would you play a song that have both major and minor chords? In the same key?what's your solution?

Thirdless chords on the left hand

The melody and your brain will fill in the missing bite
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