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[David Summers]

I'm not sure Gena, that that was the question. Most songs have major and minor chords.

Yes you are correct, I was posting in a hurry.

However, the thought is still relatively correct, I think - some tunes will incorporate major and minor chords while remaining diatonic with a key signature. Others tunes will move more chromatically, sometimes between parallel or adjacent keys, eg tunes that have sections in G major, but drop to G minor for a section - Horse's Brawl, or, The Feathers for example.

In the former case, 2 row fourth apart boxes incorporate a lot of the diatonic minor chords in some way. In the latter case, usually, we take our chord's thirds out.

I guess its good to give an example of a song that moves between the minor and the relative major, up a minor third.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6u_7yd4bg8

So Vashti Bunyans Where I Like To Stand is largely written in C minor, e.g. listen to the pharse the men in the boats say. However it has several sections that are in Eb major, e.g. listen to the phrase the bobbing boats say.

What makes it inetersing is how efortless the transition is, in verse two, it isn't clear where the tune moves from minor to major, there are sections that are definitly minor, and other major; but the bit between the two is not firmly seated on either the C or Eb (e.g. "I'm counting the miles till we're there")

[george garside]

I'm not sure Gena, that that was the question. Most songs have major and minor chords.

Yes you are correct, I was posting in a hurry.

However, the thought is still relatively correct, I think - some tunes will incorporate major and minor chords while remaining diatonic with a key signature. Others tunes will move more chromatically, sometimes between parallel or adjacent keys, eg tunes that have sections in G major, but drop to G minor for a section - Horse's Brawl, or, The Feathers for example.

In the former case, 2 row fourth apart boxes incorporate a lot of the diatonic minor chords in some way. In the latter case, usually, we take our chord's thirds out.

I guess its good to give an example of a song that moves between the minor and the relative major, up a minor third.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6u_7yd4bg8

   pharse 
 firmly seated 

indeed

[Tone Dumb Greg]

This is the sort of thing I thought Richard was talking about

An old English tune, Old Adam The Poacher.

It starts in Dm then goes to D major. A simple little tune but lovely to play and mess around with. It's difficult to know when to stop playing it.

I play with thirds out works a treat.

[David Summers]

An old English tune, Old Adam The Poacher.

It starts in Dm then goes to D major. A simple little tune but lovely to play and mess around with. It's difficult to know when to stop playing it.

I'll need to look at it, but key signature changes from Aminor/CMajor to Bminor/DMajor; so on signature alone its just a key change, rather than a relative or parallel.

Left Hand is just going D+A (tonic + dominant on D) to G+D(subdominant + tonic on D) - so left hand isn't changing key.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

An old English tune, Old Adam The Poacher.

It starts in Dm then goes to D major. A simple little tune but lovely to play and mess around with. It's difficult to know when to stop playing it.

I'll need to look at it, but key signature changes from Aminor/CMajor to Bminor/DMajor; so on signature alone its just a key change, rather than a relative or parallel.

Left Hand is just going D+A (tonic + dominant on D) to G+D(subdominant + tonic on D) - so left hand isn't changing key.

It's not in Aminor. It's in Dm and Dmajor. The minor part is very modal could be interpreted as Dorian or Aeolian. The B part is firmly in D major. With the third stop out, a D5 (what guitar players call a power chord) sounds like Dm in the A part and D major in the B part. The ear hears the missing thirds according to the melody and other instruments playing.  I read this as being a simple example of the situation you describe.

[David Summers]

It's not in Aminor. It's in Dm and Dmajor. The minor part is very modal could be interpreted as Dorian or Aeolian. The B part is firmly in D major. With the third stop out, a D5 (what guitar players call a power chord) sounds like Dm in the A part and D major in the B part. The ear hears the missing thirds according to the melody and other instruments playing.  I read this as being a simple example of the situation you describe.

Could be, the first section contains no Bb, which is the difference between D Minor and A minor ....

I think the second half of this is the tune you are talking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt70wnC92mQ

[Stiamh]

Could be, the first section contains no Bb, which is the difference between D Minor and A minor ....

It has no B-natural either. Wanting to assign a standard major or minor key to a modal folk tune based on key signature will lead you up the garden path.

[Tony Cipriano]

I am not talking about key change while playing, i am talking about when a song that you're playing has some major and minor chords, so how do you play that with a 3 rows diatonic  accordion.....i wish there is a video or anything that i can look at

[Tone Dumb Greg]

It's not in Aminor. It's in Dm and Dmajor. The minor part is very modal could be interpreted as Dorian or Aeolian. The B part is firmly in D major. With the third stop out, a D5 (what guitar players call a power chord) sounds like Dm in the A part and D major in the B part. The ear hears the missing thirds according to the melody and other instruments playing.  I read this as being a simple example of the situation you describe.

Could be, the first section contains no Bb, which is the difference between D Minor and A minor ....

I think the second half of this is the tune you are talking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt70wnC92mQ

The key is defined, by the tonic. The tune resolves to  D  in both parts.
Yes that song is a setting of the tune. If you listen to this setting, you can hear the shift from major to minor very clearly.

https://soundcloud.com/greg-bradfield-smith/old-adam-the-poacher

As Steve says, there is nothing, in the score I posted, to define which of two common minor modes of D the first part is in.  My version of the tune was collected from a rural Devon fiddler, by Baring Gould in the late 19C. I don't know of any other provenance for it.

[Gena Crisman]

I am not talking about key change while playing, i am talking about when a song that you're playing has some major and minor chords, so how do you play that with a 3 rows diatonic  accordion.....i wish there is a video or anything that i can look at

Could you provide the name of a(nother) specific tune as an example? I think that might help people understand, as well as provide a clearer solution for you.

edit; I think there's a music theory + language barrier here that is causing a lot of perhaps confusing discussion.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

I am not talking about key change while playing, i am talking about when a song that you're playing has some major and minor chords, so how do you play that with a 3 rows diatonic  accordion.....i wish there is a video or anything that i can look at

I think that was explained earlier, not sure. If you play a tune in the diatonic key of a row, say G, then you have the major chords of G, C and D readily available. The minor chord of Em is available, the minor chord of Am is  usually approximated by playing a version of Am7 created by playing a Chord with an A bass note The other minor key chord, Bm is done in a similar way. D chord, B bass to give Bm7.

[Edit...Similar principles can by applied to other chord requirements, depending on the instrument you are playing. The more basses it has, the more possibilities there are. This has been discussed in the past, but I don't know if anyone has done a definitive list of the available possibilities. I'm sure people must have, but I'm not sure where to find one.

And you can play right hand chords. DG ones here. Other keys can be worked out with a bit thought.

https://soundcloud.com/greg-bradfield-smith/old-adam-the-poacher]

[Tony Cipriano]

Well i am sorry for all the confusion, im guessing that i am trying to do something rather hard with a 3 row diatonic accordion, perhaps if and when I find a solution i will post it with a video...
But one last time....get your diatonic accordion and play G major  chord with both left and right perhaps in a waltz style
Or if your accordion is is different key play that major key...
...so we're playing G major 4 measures, then D major 4 measures
Then back to G major 2 measures then G7th 2 measures, C major 4 measure and back to G major 4 measure D major 4 measure
Now G minor 4 measures D major 4 major, G major 4 measure, C minor 4 measure G minor 4 measure D major 4 measure and back to  G minor......
All others  the chords are as follows
1 major,  5th chord major, first chord major 2 measure then first chord 7th to 4th chord major, back to first chord major, 5th chord to first chord minor, 4th minor, first minor 5th major back to first minor and the end

NOW YOU KNOW ABOUT 50 60 PERCENT OF ITALIAN TRADITIONAL SONGS CHORDS.....
I HOPE I DIDN'T CONFUSE YOU GUYS EVEN MORE

[playandteach]

I am not talking about key change while playing,

Tony, thanks for the example with all the chords. You are actually giving an example of a piece that changes key a couple of times, which explains the difficulty. But it should help those people who play 3 row instruments know exactly how to help. One thing that might make a difference is how many bass buttons you have on your final instrument, along with the design, as many makers use quite different choices for the bass end - including having just bass buttons (no chords), so you may well have a solution in your choice of maker / set up.

[Tony Cipriano]

I have 2 diatonic accordion one has 8 bass and another with 18 bass ,both with 3 rh  rows

[Québécois]

On a FR-18 you could use Tablature 1 or 2 as a template, then create a bass layout with the minor version of the chords on the bass buttons that are not used, for example for a G/C setup, add the G minor, C minor and D minor, even F minor. These tablatures are 2-row with a full row of accidentals, that should get you covered.

[David Summers]

It's not in Aminor. It's in Dm and Dmajor. The minor part is very modal could be interpreted as Dorian or Aeolian. The B part is firmly in D major. With the third stop out, a D5 (what guitar players call a power chord) sounds like Dm in the A part and D major in the B part. The ear hears the missing thirds according to the melody and other instruments playing.  I read this as being a simple example of the situation you describe.

OK, had time this lunch time to work out the chords. It a very nicely arranged bit of music, in that it has large sections based off just a single chord, so the sections as as shown by the chord names above the music, and those chords are very strong.

E.g. in the Dminor section, the note F is used in 75% of the chords, and that sets up Dminor.
in the GMajor section, and 75% of chords contain a B that establishes GMajor.
in the DMajor section, 75% of chord contain an F# that establishes Dmajor

Now G is the subdominant of D, so yes can be said that GMajor and DMajor are both in a key of D Major. I suspect a key of G Major would also work - probably change a few notes only.

So only question is why the music had the first section written in a key of A minor, when it could have been written in a key of D minor without changing any notes.

So crux when playing it, is to have the 3rds removed from your bass side, and have ability to access both F and F# with the right hand ...

[Stiamh]

So only question is why the music had the first section written in a key of A minor, when ity could have been written in a key of D minor without changing any notes.

Because it's modal music. With a gapped scale to boot. What would be the point of indicating a B-flat in the key signature when there are no Bs (flat or natural) in that part of the tune? I contend there would be no point - other than to satisfy someone like yourself who really wants the tune to fit into a modern Western mould, or match the musical theory parameters they are familiar with.   

In a similar vein, consider the bucketloads of tunes we have in the folk traditions of these islands that are in the Mixolydian mode.

You could understand D Mixolydian as D major with every C a C natural, or A Mixolydian as A major with every G a G natural. When transcribing such a tune you could - as many people have done in the past - put two sharps in the key signature and prefix every C with a natural sign, or three sharps and a natural sign in front of every G.

But most people active in the tradition these days would regard that as both silly and misguided. I would say the same about putting a Bb in the key signature of the first part of the tune we are talking about here. Having no sharps or flats in the signature does not mean A minor any more than it means C major. And the fact that the start of the tune calls for a D minor chord does not mean the tune is in modern Western D minor.

[Tone Dumb Greg]

So only question is why the music had the first section written in a key of A minor, when ity could have been written in a key of D minor without changing any notes.

So crux when playing it, is to have the 3rds removed from your bass side, and have ability to access both F and F# with the right hand ...

I am trying to pick my words carefully here, as I don't want say something misleading about modes. While it is possible to think of keys in terms of modes, modes and keys are not quite the same thing. It's probably best if you look for discussions of them, specifically, as it's a big topic.

You're right about the third removal thing, though.It's why I bought myself a 2.4 row with a thirds stop. It gives me access to tunes like this.

From Tony's point of view that is one possible solution to playing tunes that shift between major and minor forms of the key.

Alternative solutions are to put together forms of the chord wanted from the available chords and basses. Where they don't exist for the chord you want (as is the case with C minor on all the standard 4th apart layouts I've seen) you would just play the bass note C and let what's going on with the left haft fill in the rest. This is what seems to be happening on the few diatonic versions of O Sole Mio I found.

The other possibility for Tony is to programme his Roland with the missing chords or chords they can be made from (Bb and Eb would give Gm7 and Cm7 with the already available basses).

The standard treble layouts already give the notes needed for the major and minor melodies.

[Gena Crisman]

NOW YOU KNOW ABOUT 50 60 PERCENT OF ITALIAN TRADITIONAL SONGS CHORDS.....

OK, so, there's a slight difference between the two progressions you shared there, the first is;
I V I-I7 IV
I V i V
I iv i V
i

The 2nd is
I V I-I7 V
I V i iv
i V i

I assume they are intended to be the same, but, which specific order doesn't really matter, because the full pallet is conveyed; access to I i IV iv and V. This to me sounds like a tune that shifts between a parallel Major and Harmonic Minor, so, G major and G harmonic minor, using chords with a root of the first, fourth or fifth only (so, relatively straight forward, three chord trick style harmony)

There are several approaches that I can think of that I could take to achieve this.

Approach #1
I could look to find my missing notes on an accidental row, for example, a tablature I or II style G/C/Acc layout, or, D/G/Acc layout (tab 1, 2, 3, 7, 9)

Approach #2
I could look to find my missing notes on an accidental row but in a G/Acc style, single row/organetto inspired layout (tab 10 with a lot of modification)

Approach #3
I could look to find my missing notes on an dedicated minor row in some kind of G/Gm layout

Approach #4
I could attempt to use (or more likely, modify) a layout based on G/C/F, using the F row's ability to play G dorian (which approximates G minor) as a backbone. (tab 11)

As you can see, there are several ways one could choose to tackle this idea. Each way has advantages and disadvantages, and each way will have the ability to do other, different things, well. When your instrument is not a fully customisable 3 row 18 bass electronic instrument that can store at least a dozen different layouts, you select a layout of reeds that
covers as many needs as possible for the music you hope to play, and often figure out solutions that are acceptable, but, not perfect. I play a D/G instrument because I play in D and G, and because the music I play moves between D and G, and the relative keys thereof. If the music you play moves between G and G minor, you really have no reason to have a D or a C row at all - this row doesn't help you play in G minor. And if you want to play a tune that worked like this in C, you can just use the electronic accordion's ability to transpose your layout from G to C.

I am not sure that any of the built in layouts is exactly perfect for what you want to do, but, it is possible to adjust it so that it is. Honestly I can not work out the purpose of many of the default tablatures and the FR-18 manual does not seem to explain them either. Some of them come closer than others.

Here is the approach I would probably take for the time being. It is based on Approach #1. Please try this:

a) I have heard that some people's tablatures on their FR-18s were not the normal defaults when they received them, causing a lot of confusion. I don't know if you have some way to verify if yours are as per the manual, but, I am drawing from the Manual.

b) Attached are two images, sourced from the from the manual, for tab 1, with a way to play for (for G being tonic) the I, i, IV, iv and V chords of the outside row highlighted (so, G major, G minor, C major, C minor, and D major). You can play the I7 on the draw only by including the middle row's F natural. You may be surprised to see that you play C major on the push, and C minor on the draw, and, G major on the press, and G minor on the draw, but, this seems to be how this layout goes. This may have been a large reason for struggling. D minor is also possible. Also, many of notes are repeated in different octaves, so you can play different inversions - I'm just trying to point you towards them.

c) You may also note that on the Bass end of the instrument, I have highlighted C bass + Eb major, and G bass + Bb major. These form C + Eb + G + Bb, (Cm7) and G + Bb + D + F (Gm7). These are often acceptable substitutes for Cm and Gm, but if they are not acceptable substitutes for you, I would suggest using the Roland software to add Cm and Gm chords (noting that the direction should correspond with the ability to play corresponding melody notes) to some of the unused bass buttons.

I hope that this is helpful to you in some way. This is just one solution, and others are possible, so, if you think this is a very odd way of doing this, then perhaps we can try another way.

[David Summers]

Because it's modal music. With a gapped scale to boot. What would be the point of indicating a B-flat in the key signature when there are no Bs (flat or natural) in that part of the tune? I contend there would be no point - other than to satisfy someone like yourself who really wants the tune to fit into a modern Western mould, or match the musical theory parameters they are familiar with.   

Its a good point. To my mind, what I always try in layout is to make it easiest for the reader. E.g. in folk choir, we had a tune (think it was Go Down Moses) that had acidentals all over the play, yes it was singable - then realising that the arranger han't done a key signature, and had taken all the key and written as accidentals. Changing it back to the key, and music made more sense, you could see the one place there was an accidental, and why it was there (to access a particular 7th chord).

So yes, if there is anything key that needs to be shown here, is that the first section has an F and the second section and F#, as that is what needs to be grasped, and this probably needs to be in the signature. Its maybe also useful to show that its half in Dminor, half in Dmajor.

So its a question of what you want to show the reader? Either the key change (probably best) or the note change (F to F#, I'd favour less).

Whats interesting in the gapped scale, is I saw it and though hexachord - which of course it isn't becuase you need more than 6 notes to play.