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Author Topic: D7 (and Am) Bass  (Read 6503 times)

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Anahata

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2019, 04:28:32 PM »

I am not sure that a D chord with a C bass really passes as a legitimate D7,
Technically, you are probably right, but it is a standard and commonly encountered way of doing it on the basses in these parts.

Because the 7th is the lowest note when you do that, it's an inversion that's technically a discord (actually I think any 7th is technically a discord...) It's perfectly legitimate in music. Bach used it a lot, but you have be careful about context to make it sound right and effective.
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2019, 04:34:18 PM »

Some instruments have different inversions of the D chord on push and pull - you may find you prefer one over the other for how it sounds combined with the C bass.

Also, I assume you don't mean you're using two fundamental buttons, when you say "double bass buttons", but a fundamental and a chord at the same time. You don't need to play both the eg A and C chord at the same time, in my opinion anyway. Using the A for oom and the C chord for pah has never bothered me, if that's how the tune has been up to that point. Same applies to Bm.

I only very very rarely play a D7 with the C bass, typically just playing a standard D.
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Tone Dumb Greg

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2019, 05:28:11 PM »

Some instruments have different inversions of the D chord on push and pull - you may find you prefer one over the other for how it sounds combined with the C bass.

I think the question was about standard pokerwork basses. Mine are the same both ways.
Anahata's point about care with context is a good one. They do improve with practice.

As has been pointed out before, the melodeon is an instrument were compromises can be so important.
Funnily enough, I am finding D7 creeping into my playing of hunt the squirrel, without any conscious descision.

I don't think I would choose to play D7 in a Planxty, but that's just my choice. I would use Am7, though.
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Greg Smith
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playandteach

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2019, 05:33:08 PM »


I am not sure that a D chord with a C bass really passes as a legitimate D7,

Technically, you are probably right, but it is a standard and commonly encountered way of doing it on the basses in these parts.
Forgetting the melodeon for the moment a D major chord over a C bass is absolutely a D7 chord  it's in 3rd inversion and would most naturally resolve to a G chord in 1st inversion - so with a B bass.
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David Summers

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2019, 05:46:55 PM »

Forgetting the melodeon for the moment a D major chord over a C bass is absolutely a D7 chord  it's in 3rd inversion and would most naturally resolve to a G chord in 1st inversion - so with a B bass.
Bingo! Thats exactly what Go Down Moses does, its a D7 on "people" and G on "go"!
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Gary P Chapin

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2019, 05:52:58 PM »


I am not sure that a D chord with a C bass really passes as a legitimate D7,

Technically, you are probably right, but it is a standard and commonly encountered way of doing it on the basses in these parts.

It's an inversion. Inversions are legitimate. Whether it sounds good in context is another thing.
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2019, 05:59:20 PM »

Bingo! Thats exactly what Go Down Moses does, its a D7 on "people" and G on "go"!

When you say G, is that a G minor?
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Greg Smith
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Gena Crisman

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2019, 05:59:55 PM »

Some instruments have different inversions of the D chord on push and pull - you may find you prefer one over the other for how it sounds combined with the C bass.

I think the question was about standard pokerwork basses. Mine are the same both ways.

The thread is indeed regarding pokerwork basses - but, that was actually why I mentioned the possibility of there being a difference, and I'm (only vaguely) surprised yours are the same. However, I am only pulling that expectation from this thread: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php?topic=23350.0 , rather than personal pokerwork experience.

However, even if OP's are the same, speaking to the general audience, the Oakwood I play does have different D chord inversions, and I do prefer one D7 over the other, so, those readers might like to consider that, perhaps.
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David Summers

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2019, 06:04:41 PM »

Bingo! Thats exactly what Go Down Moses does, its a D7 on "people" and G on "go"!

When you say G, is that a G minor?
In my 3 part music I have to hand: D7: CDF# resolved to G: Bb DG

So the G is G minor (inverted). Note that the D7 is missing the 5th, think when I've seen it in four parts the other part sings the fifth.

Modified (I missed the key signature)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:06:31 PM by David Summers »
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2019, 06:41:51 PM »

I think the question was about standard pokerwork basses. Mine are the same both ways.


The thread is indeed regarding pokerwork basses - but, that was actually why I mentioned the possibility of there being a difference, and I'm (only vaguely) surprised yours are the same. However, I am only pulling that expectation fr

I'll double check in the morning (can't play this late without complaints). I've never noticed a difference, but my ears can be a bit lacking.
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Greg Smith
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The Oul' Boy

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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2019, 07:20:43 PM »

One of the things I love about this forum is the sheer amount of information and enthusiasm of its contributors! Any question is guaranteed to veer in all sorts of interesting directions. Makes for excellent reading and entertainment.

I've been having a think about this with your (plural, 'youser' in my dialect) various comments in mind. Part of the problem is that I haven't yet honed playing these bass/chord combos so that they sound a bit too loud and slightly out of time, especially given that the bass end of a Pokerwork isn't always a subtle thing (it does have a growly, somewhat metallic timbre to my ear). Playing things again and putting Am in a tune I can play a bit better, Hesleyside Reel, it doesn't sound too bad, but it still needs work (or getting used to the sound). The D7 sounds rather discordant to me (but maybe, from the comments on here, that's partly true?), but maybe again that's a case of practicing and getting used to it, and I must try it in the other direction to see if there's a difference (thanks for the tip!).

I'll go through the comments and respond to particular points of interest.

Thanks again!  :||:
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2019, 07:24:18 PM »

To me its very dependent on the tune. 7th chords, by containing both the root and the seventh, have notes only a tone apart. That always creates a bit of a clash.

Useful info David, thank you. So you think that hearing a slight discordancy is to be expected?

On a melodeon its also sometimes given by the instrument, e.g. when you only have major chords on the left hand, if you want a minor chord, your only option is to add a minor third below the root, to give a minor seventh chord - and if thats the only minor chord you have, then use it.

Some songs have seventh chords, and to my mind they don't seem to need it.

I shall bear these useful remarks in mind!
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2019, 07:28:06 PM »

Some people (e.g., John Kirkpatrick) are rather outspoken that dominant 7th chords are rarely appropriate in traditional English music.

I am not sure that a D chord with a C bass really passes as a legitimate D7, unless maybe as part of a bass run that resolves to the G. The Am7 formed by playing C with an A bass is a perfectly reasonable chord with the bass in the right place, although even so the 7th may be sound a bit jarring depending on the context.

Useful comments Jesse, thank you, though I'll admit that the 'science' of chords is still something I know too little about.
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2019, 07:31:47 PM »

wrt  Hohner Pokerwork basses, I've just noticed Steve's bass layout diagram

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,24808.0/topicseen.html

This shows D being in two inversions (1 and 2) depending on direction. I stand corrected again.

I would say, I've a feeling I only play D7 on the pull. Not certain, but I think so. I think that's just the way it's worked out for me.
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Greg Smith
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2019, 07:32:51 PM »

Also, I assume you don't mean you're using two fundamental buttons, when you say "double bass buttons", but a fundamental and a chord at the same time. You don't need to play both the eg A and C chord at the same time, in my opinion anyway. Using the A for oom and the C chord for pah has never bothered me, if that's how the tune has been up to that point. Same applies to Bm.

I only very very rarely play a D7 with the C bass, typically just playing a standard D.

Ha ha, it's not beyond my numptiness to make a basic mistake like this, but not this time!

So you often play 'Am' not as A bass followed by A bass + C chord, but as A bass followed by C chord (alone), and likewise Bm as B bass followed by D chord? Interesting, sounds simpler and worth trying out.

Using standard D in Planxty sounds pretty OK to me, but I will continue to experiment.

Thanks!
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2019, 07:34:08 PM »

I don't think I would choose to play D7 in a Planxty, but that's just my choice. I would use Am7, though.

I'll continue trying out the various possibilities and see what sounds best, useful to know what others would consider doing, thanks!
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2019, 07:35:50 PM »

wrt  Hohner Pokerwork basses, I've just noticed Steve's bass layout diagram

http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,24808.0/topicseen.html

This shows D being in two inversions (1 and 2) depending on direction. I stand corrected again.

I would say, I've a feeling I only play D7 on the pull. Not certain, but I think so. I think that's just the way it's worked out for me.

D7 on the push is current something I have to stop a tune for, much easier on the pull given that the buttons are close!
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2019, 07:43:17 PM »

One point. Just because someone puts particular dots and chords into their version of a tune (and score it that way), definitely doesn't mean you have to play it that way.
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Greg Smith
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2019, 07:51:37 PM »

To me its very dependent on the tune. 7th chords, by containing both the root and the seventh, have notes only a tone apart. That always creates a bit of a clash.

Useful info David, thank you. So you think that hearing a slight discordancy is to be expected?


I shall bear these useful remarks in mind!
The tone (or 7th depending on the voicing) is only a small part of the dissonance. The real reason dominant 7th chords work is the tritone between the major 3rd and the minor 7th. This is incredibly unstable, and if played alone will want to fall either outwards or inwards. That's also at the heart of diminished 7th chords which have no tone clash. Interestingly, diminished 7th chords require only any one of the notes to move downward by a semitone to create a dominant 7th, which is why they are such good chords to use to change key. C dim 7th can move to B7, D7, F7 or Ab7.
Possibly (getting back to the melodeon) you will have multiple Cs in your D7 chord which can overpower the other notes. In the Am7, the most common note should still be A (not that I have fully studied the bass voicings). In an Am7 chord there are no tritones.
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Re: D7 (and Am) Bass
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2019, 07:56:37 PM »

One point. Just because someone puts particular dots and chords into their version of a tune (and score it that way), definitely doesn't mean you have to play it that way.

Indeed, but what I don't want to do is to avoid certain chords because I'm finding them more difficult or just haven't got used to the sound they make. Much appreciated.
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Warren M (Edinburgh, formerly Tyneside and Tyrone)
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